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Subject: Re: [bitcoin-dev] High fees / centralization
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Can there be a minimum amount to put up for mining ? I hope i=E2=80=99m =
not in violation with any ideology yet :)
> On Mar 30, 2017, at 10:01 PM, Jared Lee Richardson =
<jaredr26@gmail.com> wrote:
>=20
> That would be blockchain sharding.
>=20
> Would be amazing if someone could figure out how to do it trustlessly. =
So far I'm not convinced it is possible to resolve the conflicts =
between the shards and commit transactions between shards.
>=20
> On Thu, Mar 30, 2017 at 6:39 PM, Vladimir Zaytsev =
<vladimir.zaytsev@gmail.com <mailto:vladimir.zaytsev@gmail.com>> wrote:
> There must be a way to organize =E2=80=9Cbranches=E2=80=9D of smaller =
activity to join main tree after they grow. Outsider a bit, I see going =
circles here, but not everything must be accepted in the chain. Good =
idea as it is, it=E2=80=99s just too early to record every sight=E2=80=A6.=
>=20
>=20
>=20
>> On Mar 30, 2017, at 5:52 PM, Jared Lee Richardson via bitcoin-dev =
<bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org =
<mailto:bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org>> wrote:
>>=20
>> > Further, we are very far from the point (in my appraisal) where =
fees are high enough to block home users from using the network.
>>=20
>> This depends entirely on the usecase entirely. Most likely even =
without a blocksize increase, home purchases will be large enough to fit =
on the blocksize in the forseeable future. Microtransactions(<$0.25) on =
the other hand aren't viable no matter what we try to do - There's just =
too much data.
>>=20
>> Most likely, transaction fees above $1 per tx will become unappealing =
for many consumers, and above $10 is likely to be niche-level. It is =
hard to say with any certainty, but average credit card fees give us =
some indications to work with - $1.2 on a $30 transaction, though paid =
by the business and not the consumer.
>>=20
>> Without blocksize increases, fees higher than $1/tx are basically =
inevitable, most likely before 2020. Running a node only costs =
$10/month if that. If we were going to favor node operational costs =
that highly in the weighting, we'd better have a pretty solid =
justification with mathematical models or examples.
>>=20
>> > We should not throw away the core innovation of monetary =
sovereignty in pursuit of supporting 0.1% of the world's daily =
transactions.
>>=20
>> If we can easily have both, why not have both?
>>=20
>> An altcoin with both will take Bitcoin's monetary sovereignty crown =
by default. No crown, no usecases, no Bitcoin.
>>=20
>>=20
>=20
>=20
--Apple-Mail=_0AA53C73-85EC-445A-B161-82D0059F10C1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Content-Type: text/html;
charset=utf-8
<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html =
charset=3Dutf-8"></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" =
class=3D"">Can there be a minimum amount to put up for mining ? I hope =
i=E2=80=99m not in violation with any ideology yet :)<div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""><div><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div class=3D"">On =
Mar 30, 2017, at 10:01 PM, Jared Lee Richardson <<a =
href=3D"mailto:jaredr26@gmail.com" class=3D"">jaredr26@gmail.com</a>> =
wrote:</div><br class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=3D""><div =
dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"">That would be blockchain sharding.<br =
class=3D""><br class=3D"">Would be amazing if someone could figure out =
how to do it trustlessly. So far I'm not convinced it is possible =
to resolve the conflicts between the shards and commit transactions =
between shards.</div><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br class=3D""><div =
class=3D"gmail_quote">On Thu, Mar 30, 2017 at 6:39 PM, Vladimir Zaytsev =
<span dir=3D"ltr" class=3D""><<a =
href=3D"mailto:vladimir.zaytsev@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank" =
class=3D"">vladimir.zaytsev@gmail.com</a>></span> wrote:<br =
class=3D""><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 =
.8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div =
style=3D"word-wrap:break-word" class=3D""><div class=3D"">There must be =
a way to organize =E2=80=9Cbranches=E2=80=9D of smaller activity to join =
main tree after they grow. Outsider a bit, I see going circles here, but =
not everything must be accepted in the chain. Good idea as it is, it=E2=80=
=99s just too early to record every sight=E2=80=A6.</div><span =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><br class=3D""><div class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" =
class=3D""><div class=3D"">On Mar 30, 2017, at 5:52 PM, Jared Lee =
Richardson via bitcoin-dev <<a =
href=3D"mailto:bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org" target=3D"_blank" =
class=3D"">bitcoin-dev@lists.<wbr class=3D"">linuxfoundation.org</a>> =
wrote:</div><br =
class=3D"m_1610363654403453300Apple-interchange-newline"><div =
class=3D""><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"">> <span =
style=3D"font-size:12.8px" class=3D"">Further, we are very far from the =
point (in my appraisal) where fees are high enough to block home users =
from using the network.</span><div class=3D""><br class=3D"">This =
depends entirely on the usecase entirely. Most likely even without =
a blocksize increase, home purchases will be large enough to fit on the =
blocksize in the forseeable future. Microtransactions(<$0.25) =
on the other hand aren't viable no matter what we try to do - There's =
just too much data.</div><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"gmail_extra">Most likely, transaction =
fees above $1 per tx will become unappealing for many consumers, and =
above $10 is likely to be niche-level. It is hard to say with any =
certainty, but average credit card fees give us some indications to work =
with - $1.2 on a $30 transaction, though paid by the business and not =
the consumer.<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">Without blocksize increases, =
fees higher than $1/tx are basically inevitable, most likely before =
2020. Running a node only costs $10/month if that. If we =
were going to favor node operational costs that highly in the weighting, =
we'd better have a pretty solid justification with mathematical models =
or examples.</div><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br =
class=3D"">> <span style=3D"font-size:12.8px" class=3D"">We =
should not throw away the core innovation of monetary sovereignty in =
pursuit of supporting 0.1% of the world's daily transactions.<br =
class=3D""></span><br class=3D"">If we can easily have both, why not =
have both?<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">An altcoin with both will take =
Bitcoin's monetary sovereignty crown by default. No crown, no =
usecases, no Bitcoin.</div><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br =
class=3D""></div></div></div></blockquote></div><br =
class=3D""></span></div></blockquote></div><br class=3D""></div>
</div></blockquote></div><br class=3D""></div></body></html>=
--Apple-Mail=_0AA53C73-85EC-445A-B161-82D0059F10C1--
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