1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
26
27
28
29
30
31
32
33
34
35
36
37
38
39
40
41
42
43
44
45
46
47
48
49
50
51
52
53
54
55
56
57
58
59
60
61
62
63
64
65
66
67
68
69
70
71
72
73
74
75
76
77
78
79
80
81
82
83
84
85
86
87
88
89
90
91
92
93
94
95
96
97
98
99
100
101
102
103
104
105
106
107
108
109
110
111
112
113
114
115
116
117
118
119
120
121
122
123
124
125
126
127
128
129
130
131
132
133
134
135
136
137
138
139
140
141
142
143
144
145
146
147
148
149
150
151
152
153
154
155
156
157
158
159
160
161
162
163
164
165
166
167
168
169
170
171
172
173
174
175
176
177
178
179
180
181
182
183
184
185
186
187
188
189
190
191
192
193
194
195
196
197
198
199
200
201
202
203
204
205
206
207
208
209
210
211
212
213
214
215
216
217
218
219
220
221
222
223
224
225
226
227
228
229
230
231
232
233
234
235
236
237
238
239
240
|
Delivery-date: Mon, 23 Jun 2025 02:13:24 -0700
Received: from mail-yb1-f185.google.com ([209.85.219.185])
by mail.fairlystable.org with esmtps (TLS1.3) tls TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_128_GCM_SHA256
(Exim 4.94.2)
(envelope-from <bitcoindev+bncBDVYJXXCR4EBBKNV4TBAMGQE22XLX7Q@googlegroups.com>)
id 1uTdEx-00046o-PY
for bitcoindev@gnusha.org; Mon, 23 Jun 2025 02:13:24 -0700
Received: by mail-yb1-f185.google.com with SMTP id 3f1490d57ef6-e7d971b6398sf4314754276.2
for <bitcoindev@gnusha.org>; Mon, 23 Jun 2025 02:13:23 -0700 (PDT)
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed;
d=googlegroups.com; s=20230601; t=1750669997; x=1751274797; darn=gnusha.org;
h=list-unsubscribe:list-subscribe:list-archive:list-help:list-post
:list-id:mailing-list:precedence:x-original-sender:mime-version
:subject:references:in-reply-to:message-id:to:from:date:sender:from
:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to;
bh=bNCQGtDt2DFHgOZj1vJrpyAnI9ULnndqFRyv88PO3oU=;
b=IEG6/epfpTBWzYs2dymXSIcr1Snvo8DP332ZJixrdbpnIMt81b/CI5qWy2VRStThe7
fwn6Eu71xmCC1ymB37HDv9NswNx8aUkscunnHp7TZdVg4na8PGzB6+66QP7Zt/DxjQHm
Wv+xftRY+VKNxTFysHDQkd0x9PoHfjG5fMy7hdlNxOoU3CfGd28HeZQzkB88kKg1nWHK
+UdvbXB9bIIfFB3Fimqf9wKP8rwFAVYAvodrAkzasiwn8f6MjOzXVR4OGhL3rumbvW2P
hA7YRIxX59weS6mHZZankh1Frl4xJHCe2BuZnMEz1r5ZsVjkDySHaj/osqc9989n0fC0
OHPA==
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed;
d=gmail.com; s=20230601; t=1750669997; x=1751274797; darn=gnusha.org;
h=list-unsubscribe:list-subscribe:list-archive:list-help:list-post
:list-id:mailing-list:precedence:x-original-sender:mime-version
:subject:references:in-reply-to:message-id:to:from:date:from:to:cc
:subject:date:message-id:reply-to;
bh=bNCQGtDt2DFHgOZj1vJrpyAnI9ULnndqFRyv88PO3oU=;
b=L9NPmER7/aHy7o5QQc5VTBCWFMZy5RD/PudeAmoLTWkixHH+NtIAnMkJChJPNuFefn
0FVavmTfYgJpnMP7iRGIbfPXaKdi8i8uCtSuKT2NCNYcJ72/WdZhqskP1TD6yy/Rc0A8
SM2CZA0ozQyNDv1ugzMfS6p8sOAbjS+FSrDHdRDVt9cvU0TEQ0P5A1etRtb4j0RflkcH
sg9Gv007B4AAgVE2Eh6ZvdFnH0RLJBQEkZdgmtlBrBV5/650Vp8VCUGEQpnFuFnTpEs9
BaE0e9/Es8sGV+El6GY10rL2Th78OTK1SvMhU73eOyi7QNUln1hPGxPIcnNw1dbyFA2/
jpiA==
X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed;
d=1e100.net; s=20230601; t=1750669997; x=1751274797;
h=list-unsubscribe:list-subscribe:list-archive:list-help:list-post
:list-id:mailing-list:precedence:x-original-sender:mime-version
:subject:references:in-reply-to:message-id:to:from:date:x-beenthere
:x-gm-message-state:sender:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id
:reply-to;
bh=bNCQGtDt2DFHgOZj1vJrpyAnI9ULnndqFRyv88PO3oU=;
b=G5QHZlZiLZwcNHWUKD2kgQnMu5xPItLjA8cIREOyWlDH5zMgJJSVypSp8X3XVpZpMo
lVZKtW4GHgUZIOM0/10mvbalMYGt0jpwOpjCoHJ0Z3uCGDKg7YzXxTzgFrXl2tKgxRgS
AoAobSvQW6N9ZyE58/UMaz23i4v69FD32jkE23zOr5G8wHULDDzoQZD46JrtmAoE8go8
RziKDlY+DFKX99VVPFS8RZd5OfM2Xg1aP5QQgAGIz8j1ABSERxru+evml6UWLuaP2SGp
eQkOROKvwLqMg1u2ZAGdN7PqGNvasa1gU6F/XZ4HSKb4Lr1H3GOKvl5mTERITrf/l7K0
3Z3Q==
Sender: bitcoindev@googlegroups.com
X-Forwarded-Encrypted: i=1; AJvYcCWBT5daX44mK0Ea6RJPyFMyi4gWgdhOW4Es5uVht/G2/qwX9VfftZMn+qsjPLHC5wDcv3eLTjiMZfGP@gnusha.org
X-Gm-Message-State: AOJu0YyAb+Lx1f9s9RQYvazbf1zrz0hPcFkqrbSN9LJ+QV1nrmO6Cq8X
XH7fnc9XxuaaISb2j+oiF3ESxzdSJOuQfzs2vPc/xCHk1bGdBlDCBMEt
X-Google-Smtp-Source: AGHT+IHb0XQc+4yHEokMNiZyD52sczgp8Z6+pUBt53lWwgK6aHTsrQHD1tTN36gGm7BpXKCacFM3aQ==
X-Received: by 2002:a05:6902:1203:b0:e81:84ac:cd9 with SMTP id 3f1490d57ef6-e842bc887d8mr14794371276.16.1750669997300;
Mon, 23 Jun 2025 02:13:17 -0700 (PDT)
X-BeenThere: bitcoindev@googlegroups.com; h=AZMbMZcJIgiTRzwxigZRKwp08biWj5XR0cIV7u/lCM2HN4ReXg==
Received: by 2002:a25:6ac3:0:b0:e84:d706:629f with SMTP id 3f1490d57ef6-e84d7066492ls709227276.1.-pod-prod-09-us;
Mon, 23 Jun 2025 02:13:13 -0700 (PDT)
X-Received: by 2002:a05:690c:6d0b:b0:712:d70b:45d5 with SMTP id 00721157ae682-712d70b47e1mr106267337b3.33.1750669992999;
Mon, 23 Jun 2025 02:13:12 -0700 (PDT)
Received: by 2002:a81:b548:0:b0:710:fccf:6901 with SMTP id 00721157ae682-712a570c57dms7b3;
Sat, 21 Jun 2025 05:07:00 -0700 (PDT)
X-Received: by 2002:a05:690c:4b90:b0:712:c55c:4e48 with SMTP id 00721157ae682-712c631235cmr88525977b3.8.1750507619621;
Sat, 21 Jun 2025 05:06:59 -0700 (PDT)
Date: Sat, 21 Jun 2025 05:06:59 -0700 (PDT)
From: fiatjaf <fiatjaf@gmail.com>
To: Bitcoin Development Mailing List <bitcoindev@googlegroups.com>
Message-Id: <a1859d47-59f9-42ea-832a-ae03db33738en@googlegroups.com>
In-Reply-To: <mc0q6r14.59407778-1eb1-4e57-bcf2-c781d6f70b01@we.are.superhuman.com>
References: <a86c2737-db79-4f54-9c1d-51beeb765163n@googlegroups.com>
<035f8b9c-9711-4edb-9d01-bef4a96320e1@roose.io>
<GLGZ3rEDfqaW8jAfIA6ac78uQzjEdYQaJf3ER9gd4e-wBXsiS2NK0wAj8LWK8VHf7w6Zru3IKbtDU5NM102jD8wMjjw8y7FmiDtQIy9U7Y4=@protonmail.com>
<mc0q6r14.59407778-1eb1-4e57-bcf2-c781d6f70b01@we.are.superhuman.com>
Subject: Re: [bitcoindev] CTV + CSFS: a letter
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: multipart/mixed;
boundary="----=_Part_207940_334775785.1750507619333"
X-Original-Sender: fiatjaf@gmail.com
Precedence: list
Mailing-list: list bitcoindev@googlegroups.com; contact bitcoindev+owners@googlegroups.com
List-ID: <bitcoindev.googlegroups.com>
X-Google-Group-Id: 786775582512
List-Post: <https://groups.google.com/group/bitcoindev/post>, <mailto:bitcoindev@googlegroups.com>
List-Help: <https://groups.google.com/support/>, <mailto:bitcoindev+help@googlegroups.com>
List-Archive: <https://groups.google.com/group/bitcoindev
List-Subscribe: <https://groups.google.com/group/bitcoindev/subscribe>, <mailto:bitcoindev+subscribe@googlegroups.com>
List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:googlegroups-manage+786775582512+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com>,
<https://groups.google.com/group/bitcoindev/subscribe>
X-Spam-Score: -0.5 (/)
------=_Part_207940_334775785.1750507619333
Content-Type: multipart/alternative;
boundary="----=_Part_207941_1216264320.1750507619333"
------=_Part_207941_1216264320.1750507619333
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Good morning, I'm nobody and I certainly haven't ever contributed to=20
Bitcoin Core, but I still wanted to say, just because no one mentioned=20
these things, that CTV+CSFS would be great to enable the Spacechains and=20
Statechains constructs.
On the spacechain front I've worked on two proof-of-concepts in the past,=
=20
https://github.com/fiatjaf/simple-ctv-spacechain and=20
https://github.com/nbd-wtf-soma and I know of at least two companies that=
=20
showed interest in deploying decentralized spacechains, one was ZEBEDEE who=
=20
wanted to sponsor a decentralized and open blockchain for asset transfers=
=20
at the time I worked there, the other was Tether who was interested in an=
=20
open blockchain dedicated to USDT. Of course these companies never made any=
=20
real moves (besides ZEBEDEE sponsoring me for working on Soma after the=20
fact) towards implementing any of these things because it was known at the=
=20
time that the soft-forks required at the time (around 2020~2023) were all=
=20
perceived to be "many years away".
Today I learned that Tether has deployed some kind of shit-chain called=20
"usdt0" that isn't the same thing as a spacechain but has some overlap and=
=20
likely wouldn=E2=80=99t exist today if a USDT spacechain had been available=
. There=20
is also a very clear argument that if we had some kind of=20
spacechain-for-assets deployed some years ago the entire utxoset-spam that=
=20
came from the BRC-20 protocol would have not happened -- and arguably we=20
could have perhaps saved at least some of the development efforts that went=
=20
into the less bad alternative asset transfer protocols like Runes, RGB,=20
Tap-ass and whatnot.
On the statechain front I have followed the development of Mercury wallet=
=20
v1 (at some point I launched the "statecoin torch" -- to not say I didn't=
=20
do anything) and later of the Mercury Layer=20
blind-signing-server+client-side-statechain construct, and I still think it=
=20
would have been a great protocol for transfer of Bitcoin value in many=20
circumstances, but the fact that these statechains had a fixed lifespan=20
given by nLockTime (a limitation required by the lack of APO or CTV+CSFS)=
=20
certainly made it much less interesting.
I'm not claiming that if we'd had a covenant-enabling soft-fork available=
=20
some years ago we would have spacechains thriving today and adding to the=
=20
security budget and awareness of Bitcoin without causing any harm or using=
=20
excessive blockspace and that blind statechains would be widely adopted for=
=20
payments or inter-institution settlements, I am just telling some small=20
anecdotes of some possibilities that we may have lost.
I'm also not saying that this soft-fork, if merged today, will cause people=
=20
to work on these things, because probably these ships have already sailed,=
=20
I'm merely highlighting that not doing anything has costs in lost=20
opportunities and invisible risks, and that we don't know what ships=20
haven't sailed yet or what we're losing today by postponing things again.
--=20
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "=
Bitcoin Development Mailing List" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e=
mail to bitcoindev+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
To view this discussion visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/bitcoindev/=
a1859d47-59f9-42ea-832a-ae03db33738en%40googlegroups.com.
------=_Part_207941_1216264320.1750507619333
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Good morning, I'm nobody and I certainly haven't ever contributed to Bitcoi=
n Core, but I still wanted to say, just because no one mentioned these thin=
gs, that CTV+CSFS would be great to enable the Spacechains and Statechains =
constructs.<br /><br />On the spacechain front I've worked on two proof-of-=
concepts in the past, https://github.com/fiatjaf/simple-ctv-spacechain and =
https://github.com/nbd-wtf-soma and I know of at least two companies that s=
howed interest in deploying decentralized spacechains, one was ZEBEDEE who =
wanted to sponsor a decentralized and open blockchain for asset transfers a=
t the time I worked there, the other was Tether who was interested in an op=
en blockchain dedicated to USDT. Of course these companies never made any r=
eal moves (besides ZEBEDEE sponsoring me for working on Soma after the fact=
) towards implementing any of these things because it was known at the time=
that the soft-forks required at the time (around 2020~2023) were all perce=
ived to be "many years away".<br /><br />Today I learned that Tether has de=
ployed some kind of shit-chain called "usdt0" that isn't the same thing as =
a spacechain but has some overlap and likely wouldn=E2=80=99t exist today i=
f a USDT spacechain had been available. There is also a very clear argument=
that if we had some kind of spacechain-for-assets deployed some years ago =
the entire utxoset-spam that came from the BRC-20 protocol would have not h=
appened -- and arguably we could have perhaps saved at least some of the de=
velopment efforts that went into the less bad alternative asset transfer pr=
otocols like Runes, RGB, Tap-ass and whatnot.<br /><br />On the statechain =
front I have followed the development of Mercury wallet v1 (at some point I=
launched the "statecoin torch" -- to not say I didn't do anything) and lat=
er of the Mercury Layer blind-signing-server+client-side-statechain constru=
ct, and I still think it would have been a great protocol for transfer of B=
itcoin value in many circumstances, but the fact that these statechains had=
a fixed lifespan given by nLockTime (a limitation required by the lack of =
APO or CTV+CSFS) certainly made it much less interesting.<br /><br />I'm no=
t claiming that if we'd had a covenant-enabling soft-fork available some ye=
ars ago we would have spacechains thriving today and adding to the security=
budget and awareness of Bitcoin without causing any harm or using excessiv=
e blockspace and that blind statechains would be widely adopted for payment=
s or inter-institution settlements, I am just telling some small anecdotes =
of some possibilities that we may have lost.<br /><br />I'm also not saying=
that this soft-fork, if merged today, will cause people to work on these t=
hings, because probably these ships have already sailed, I'm merely highlig=
hting that not doing anything has costs in lost opportunities and invisible=
risks, and that we don't know what ships haven't sailed yet or what we're =
losing today by postponing things again.<br />
<p></p>
-- <br />
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups &=
quot;Bitcoin Development Mailing List" group.<br />
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e=
mail to <a href=3D"mailto:bitcoindev+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com">bitcoind=
ev+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com</a>.<br />
To view this discussion visit <a href=3D"https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/=
bitcoindev/a1859d47-59f9-42ea-832a-ae03db33738en%40googlegroups.com?utm_med=
ium=3Demail&utm_source=3Dfooter">https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/bitcoind=
ev/a1859d47-59f9-42ea-832a-ae03db33738en%40googlegroups.com</a>.<br />
------=_Part_207941_1216264320.1750507619333--
------=_Part_207940_334775785.1750507619333--
|