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Date: Mon, 09 Jun 2025 18:55:15 +0000
To: James O'Beirne <james.obeirne@gmail.com>
From: "'Antoine Poinsot' via Bitcoin Development Mailing List" <bitcoindev@googlegroups.com>
Cc: Bitcoin Development Mailing List <bitcoindev@googlegroups.com>
Subject: Re: [bitcoindev] CTV + CSFS: a letter
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James, cosigners,

I am sympathetic to the idea of a CTV+CSFS soft fork, mainly for its flagsh=
ip use case: LN-Symmetry.

However i think it is premature to call for a "final review and activation"=
 of these opcodes when
there is still:
- disagreement between Bitcoin protocol developers/researchers that it is t=
he way to go for enabling
  more expressive scripting capabilities in Bitcoin[^0];
- disagreement between Bitcoin developers on how the functionality of at le=
ast one of the proposed
  opcodes should be achieved[^1];
- no review after three months, from any of the champions or signers of thi=
s letter, on the PR for
  integrating one of the two proposed opcodes to the test network[^2].

The flagship use case of the proposal has also not been properly demonstrat=
ed. As a point of
comparison Greg Sanders provided motivation for `ANYPREVOUT`, a soft fork t=
hat no one even called
to be "finally reviewed and activated", by publishing a detailed proof of c=
oncept of LN-Symmetry
(with full specification as a BOLT draft + an implementation in one of the =
major Lightning clients).

A comprehensive exploration gives confidence a use case is actually realist=
ic in practice. Of course
it's not necessary to go to such lengths just to demonstrate it to be *poss=
ible*, but it is
reasonable to expect a champion to have something to show if they are calli=
ng for changing Bitcoin.
Fortunately i hear some have taken upon themselves to further explore LN-Sy=
mmetry and multiparty
channels using CTV+CSFS, which could provide tangible motivation for the so=
ft fork. Let's see what
they come up with.

Finally, it seems the post contains a built-in assumption that Bitcoin Core=
 contributors are
detached from the research in more expressive scripting capabilities. It is=
 incorrect. A number of
individuals have been involved both with Bitcoin Core development and Bitco=
in protocol research,
with substantial contributions in both areas.

Therefore it seems the stalling state of the CTV+CSFS proposal is not due t=
o apathy as this open
letter would lead to believe, but controversy on the content of the proposa=
l among Bitcoin protocol
developers as well as a lack of involvement from the part of champions in r=
eaching consensus.

In these conditions calling for an impending change to Bitcoin's consensus =
rules seems unadvisable,
and the urgency with a six months deadline is nothing short of reckless.

I remain confident we can make progress toward enabling more expressive scr=
ipting capabilities in
Bitcoin. The path forward is by building consensus on the basis of strong t=
echnical arguments, and
the politics of pushing for the premature activation of a consensus change =
are working against it.

Best,
Antoine Poinsot


[^0]: https://delvingbitcoin.org/t/ctv-csfs-can-we-reach-consensus-on-a-fir=
st-step-towards-covenants/1509/14
      https://gnusha.org/pi/bitcoindev/6f78b702-4bd0-4aa4-ac51-b881d8df9f01=
@mattcorallo.com
[^1]: https://delvingbitcoin.org/t/ctv-csfs-can-we-reach-consensus-on-a-fir=
st-step-towards-covenants/1509/58
[^2]: https://github.com/bitcoin-inquisition/bitcoin/pull/72
[^3]: https://delvingbitcoin.org/t/ln-symmetry-project-recap/359


On Monday, June 9th, 2025 at 7:54 AM, James O'Beirne <james.obeirne@gmail.c=
om> wrote:

> Good morning,
>=20
> A letter has been published advocating for the final review and
> activation of OP_CHECKTEMPLATEVERIFY (BIP-119) and OP_CHECKSIGFROMSTACK
> (BIP-348).
>=20
> The full text of the letter can be found at https://ctv-csfs.com. It is
> reproduced below.
>=20
> ---
>=20
> To the technical bitcoin community,
>=20
> We believe that the best next step for bitcoin would be to activate
> OP_CHECKTEMPLATEVERIFY (CTV, BIP-119) and OP_CHECKSIGFROMSTACK (CSFS,
> BIP-348). These opcodes enable functionality for a broad set of uses
> that will allow bitcoin to preserve and expand its role as a scarce,
> censorship-resistant store of value.
>=20
> While there are a few promising proposals to improve bitcoin at the
> consensus layer which may someday be deployed, we believe that CTV and
> CSFS are uniquely well reviewed, simple, and have been proven to be both
> safe and widely demanded.
>=20
> CTV was first formalized in BIP-119 over 5 years ago. Despite many
> attempts at refinement or replacement, it has remained the most widely
> preferred method for enforcing pregenerated transaction sequences using
> consensus. It unlocks valuable functionality for scaling solutions,
> vaults, congestion control, non-custodial mining, discreet log
> contracts, and more.
>=20
> CSFS is a primitive opcode that has been deployed to Blockstream=E2=80=99=
s
> Elements for at least 8 years. It represents no significant
> computational burden over bitcoin=E2=80=99s most often used opcode, OP_CH=
ECKSIG.
> It can be combined with CTV to implement ln-symmetry, a longstanding
> improvement to Lightning. It also unlocks a variety of other use cases.
>=20
> We respectfully ask Bitcoin Core contributors to prioritize the review
> and integration of CTV (PR #31989 or similar) and CSFS (PR #32247 or
> similar) within the next six months. We believe this timeline allows for
> rigorous final review and activation planning.
>=20
> This request isn't meant to suggest that these contributors dictate the
> consensus process, but rather it is an acknowledgement that before these
> opcodes can be activated, they must be implemented in the most widely
> used bitcoin client.
>=20
> As application and protocol developers, we are convinced of the
> significant benefits that these changes would bring to end users of
> bitcoin =E2=80=93 even if only considering their use for layer 1 security=
 and
> layer 2 scaling solutions. We are optimistic that given the limited size
> and scope of these changes in both concept and implementation, they
> represent a realistic next step in the continuing and important work of
> preserving bitcoin's unique promise.
>=20
> Signed,
>=20
> Abdel (Starkware)
> Andrew Poelstra (@apoelstra)
> Ben Carman (@benthecarman)
> Ben Kaufman (@ben-kaufman)
> Brandon Black (@reardencode)
> Brian Langel (for Five Bells)
> Buck Perley (@puckberley)
> Calle (Cashu)
> Calvin Kim (@kcalvinalvin)
> Chun Wang (f2pool)
> Christian Decker (@cdecker)
> Coinjoined Chris (Bitsurance.eu)
> Evan Kaloudis (for Zeus)
> fiatjaf (@fiatjaf)
> Floppy (@1440000bytes)
> Gary Krause (@average-gary)
> Harsha Goli (@arshbot)
> Hunter Beast (@cryptoquick)
> Jad Mubaslat (@champbronc2)
> James O=E2=80=99Beirne (@jamesob)
> Jameson Lopp (@jlopp)
> Johan Halseth (@halseth)
> Luke Childs (@lukechilds)
> Matt Black (for Atomic Finance)
> Michael Tidwell (@miketwenty1)
> Nick Hansen (for Luxor Mining)
> Nitesh (@nitesh_btc)
> nvk (@nvk)
> Owen Kemeys (for Foundation)
> Paul Sztorc (@psztorc)
> Portland.HODL (for MARA Pool)
> Rijndael (@rot13maxi)
> Rob Hamilton (@rob1ham)
> Robin Linus (@RobinLinus)
> Sanket Kanjalkar (@sanket1729)
> Sean Ryan (Anchorage)
> Seth for Privacy (for Cake Wallet)
> Simanta Gautam (Alpen Labs)
> Steven Roose (@stevenroose)
> stutxo (@stutxo)
> Talip (@otaliptus)
> mononaut (@mononautical)
> vnprc (@vnprc)
>=20
>=20
> --
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