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Date: Mon, 5 May 2025 16:55:34 -0700 (PDT)
From: Greg Maxwell <gmaxwell@gmail.com>
To: Bitcoin Development Mailing List <bitcoindev@googlegroups.com>
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Subject: Re: [bitcoindev] Re: Removing OP_Return restrictions: Devil's
Advocate Position
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On Monday, May 5, 2025 at 11:39:02=E2=80=AFPM UTC Peter Todd wrote:
When you originally proposed the scheme that may have been true. But=20
these days you could probably use zero-knowledge-proofs to prove that=20
hash digests are in fact hash digests, without having to include the=20
actual pre-images of those hash digests.=20
The schemes that I'm aware of mostly have huge side-channels in the proof. =
=20
I think I constructed one before that didn't have one for proving bilinear=
=20
keys, and it only proved a pubkey was a pubkey, but at best it's an extra=
=20
constraint.
Goes back to what you're trying to accomplish, like assume network capacity=
=20
to process/forward blocks as a fixed amount. Your concern with NFTs is them=
=20
driving up fees. So now every transaction has to carry a proof its not=20
embedding a jpeg and so the effective throughput of the network is halved=
=20
or reduced by 30% or whatever from the proofs. Not a win. And of course=
=20
were then imagining something with more cryptographic complexity than the=
=20
whole of bitcoin just to close high bandwidth channels. And low bandwidth=
=20
channels on the order of 24 to 32-bits per independently adjustable piece=
=20
of data still exist.
But Amazon doesn't offer a service to store data on S3 forever.
It doesn't my example was an economic analysis that just assumed you bought=
=20
an investment to yield enough to pay for the S3. If you actually want it=
=20
you can construct it as a legal entity.
Also of course, S3 only offers storage. Not publication. Things like=20
Citrea (and Lightning) specifically need data publication.=20
Right I might have been unclear. Some people are laboring under a mistaken=
=20
belief that the objective of people putting large amounts of data in the=20
blockchain is just to "store stuff" --- and my point is that it's=20
outrageously uneconomical for that. While there may be some on the margin,=
=20
the reality is that people storing something believe they're getting some=
=20
benefit out of doing it that they don't get from an actual storage=20
solution. On reddit I went over a few=20
examples: https://old.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/1kea81d/why_is_this_su=
b_quiet_about_the_current_debate/mqi0vfw/
--=20
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "=
Bitcoin Development Mailing List" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e=
mail to bitcoindev+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
To view this discussion visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/bitcoindev/=
47079bf1-19de-4354-880d-2d197cecb0a2n%40googlegroups.com.
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<div><div dir=3D"auto">On Monday, May 5, 2025 at 11:39:02=E2=80=AFPM UTC Pe=
ter Todd wrote:<br /></div><blockquote style=3D"margin: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; =
border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); padding-left: 1ex;">When you ori=
ginally proposed the scheme that may have been true. But
<br />these days you could probably use zero-knowledge-proofs to prove that
<br />hash digests are in fact hash digests, without having to include the
<br />actual pre-images of those hash digests.
<br /></blockquote><div><br /></div><div>The schemes that I'm aware of most=
ly have huge side-channels in the proof.=C2=A0 I think I constructed one be=
fore that didn't have one for proving bilinear keys, and it only proved a p=
ubkey was a pubkey, but at best it's an extra constraint.</div><div><br /><=
/div><div>Goes back to what you're trying to accomplish, like assume networ=
k capacity to process/forward blocks as a fixed amount. Your concern with N=
FTs is them driving up fees. So now every transaction has to carry a proof =
its not embedding a jpeg and so the effective throughput of the network is =
halved or reduced by 30% or whatever from the proofs.=C2=A0 Not a win.=C2=
=A0 And of course were then imagining something with more cryptographic com=
plexity than the whole of bitcoin just to close high bandwidth channels.=C2=
=A0 And low bandwidth channels on the order of 24 to 32-bits per independen=
tly adjustable piece of data still exist.</div><div><br /></div><div><br />=
</div><blockquote style=3D"margin: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; border-left: 1px soli=
d rgb(204, 204, 204); padding-left: 1ex;">But Amazon doesn't offer a servic=
e to store data on S3 forever.</blockquote><div><br /></div><div>It doesn't=
my example was an economic analysis that just assumed you bought an invest=
ment to yield enough to pay for the S3.=C2=A0 If you actually want it you c=
an construct it as a legal entity.</div><div><br /></div><blockquote style=
=3D"margin: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); p=
adding-left: 1ex;">Also of course, S3 only offers storage. Not publication.=
Things like
<br />Citrea (and Lightning) specifically need data publication.
<br /></blockquote><div><br /></div><div>Right I might have been unclear.=
=C2=A0 Some people are laboring under a mistaken belief that the objective =
of people putting large amounts of data in the blockchain is just to "store=
stuff" --- and my point is that it's outrageously uneconomical for that.=
=C2=A0 While there may be some on the margin, the reality is that people st=
oring something believe they're getting some benefit out of doing it that t=
hey don't get from an actual storage solution.=C2=A0 On reddit I went over =
a few examples:=C2=A0=C2=A0https://old.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/1kea81=
d/why_is_this_sub_quiet_about_the_current_debate/mqi0vfw/</div></div><div><=
br /></div>
<p></p>
-- <br />
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bitcoindev/47079bf1-19de-4354-880d-2d197cecb0a2n%40googlegroups.com?utm_med=
ium=3Demail&utm_source=3Dfooter">https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/bitcoind=
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