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From: Mark Friedenbach <mark@monetize.io>
To: Jeff Garzik <jgarzik@bitpay.com>
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Cc: bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net
Subject: Re: [Bitcoin-development] Decentralized digital asset exchange with
 honest pricing and market depth
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Only if you view bitcoin as no more than a payment network.
On Mar 1, 2014 10:24 AM, "Jeff Garzik" <jgarzik@bitpay.com> wrote:

> This is wandering far off-topic for this mailing list.
>
> On Sat, Mar 1, 2014 at 12:45 PM, Troy Benjegerdes <hozer@hozed.org> wrote:
> >> > You can make the same argument against Bitcoin itself you know...
> >> >
> >> > A Bitmessage-like network would be trivial to front-run via a sybil
> >> > attack. It's the fundemental problem with marketplaces - the data
> >> > they're trying to publish has to be public.
> >>
> >> I don't see the Bitcoin analogy...
> >> Anyway, I still don't think the seller cares, if he sells at the price
> >> he was asking, what would he care about "front running" those parallel
> >> networks.
> >> I've seen many street markets without "public information" and they
> >> work just well.
> >
> > The spot price for ammonia fertilizer, refined gasoline at terminals,
> > and price of tea in china are not 'public information', yet these are
> > some of the largest traded commodities in the world, far exceeding
> > the drop in the bucket that all cryptocoin transactions make.
> >
> > I'd further argue that the *actual* price of corn (cash bid price at
> > elevators and ethanol plants) is not public information either. There
> > is a great deal of money traded in collecting and then distributing the
> > 'cleared price' information. Have a look at
> >
> http://www.interquote.com/template.cfm?navgroup=aboutlist&urlcode=12&view=1
> >
> >
> >> >> I don't think this will be a tragedy, because like we discussed on
> >> >> IRC, I don't think the primary goal of markets is price discovery,
> but
> >> >> trade itself.
> >> >>
> >> >> About historic data, the actual trades are always public, and some
> >> >> kind of "archivers" could collect and maintain old orders for
> historic
> >> >> bid and asks, etc.
> >> >
> >> > And again, how do you know that record is honest? Fact is without
> >> > proof-of-publication you just don't.
> >>
> >> Well, the trades that appeared in the chain actually occurred.
> >> Buying to yourself at fake prices? Be careful, the miner could just
> >> separate the order and fill it himself. Or anyone paying a higher fee,
> >> for that matter.
> >
> > You just made my long-term strategic argument for investing in my own
> > mining hardware so I can be sure to trade reliably.
> >
> >> Again, you haven't addressed why the seller cares more about "accurate
> >> historic market data" than just his own fees and sell.
> >>
> >> > You mean a reverse nLockTime that makes a transaction invalid after a
> >> > certain amount of time - that's dangerous in a reorg unfortunately as
> it
> >> > can make transactions permenantly invalid.
> >
> > People who take money from buyers and sellers care most about 'accurate
> > historic market data'. I just want to exchange my corn for e85,
> fertilizer,
> > and electricity, and audit the code that runs accounting for the
> exchange.
> >
> > I really don't give a shit if there is 'accurate historic market data' as
> > long as **MY** personal trade data is accurate and I got a good enough
> price,
> > and I know who I'm dealing with.
> >
> > I know someone smarter than me and with more money, market leverage, and
> > political connections **WILL** game the system and distort the market
> data
> > history so they can take more money from buyers and sellers without
> actually
> > doing some usefull market function.
> >
> > As long as use buyers and sellers can see the code, and have a good eye
> for
> > knowing when someone's pushing the market around, we can just put our
> orders
> > in and relieve some speculators of their money.
> >
> > Just get me working code for cross-chain trades, and we'll work on the
> > accurate historic data problem later.
> >
> >
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
> > Troy Benjegerdes                 'da hozer'
> hozer@hozed.org
> > 7 elements      earth::water::air::fire::mind::spirit::soul
> grid.coop
> >
> >       Never pick a fight with someone who buys ink by the barrel,
> >          nor try buy a hacker who makes money by the megahash
> >
> >
> >
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> > Flow-based real-time traffic analytics software. Cisco certified tool.
> > Monitor traffic, SLAs, QoS, Medianet, WAAS etc. with NetFlow Analyzer
> > Customize your own dashboards, set traffic alerts and generate reports.
> > Network behavioral analysis & security monitoring. All-in-one tool.
> >
> http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=126839071&iu=/4140/ostg.clktrk
> > _______________________________________________
> > Bitcoin-development mailing list
> > Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net
> > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development
>
>
>
> --
> Jeff Garzik
> Bitcoin core developer and open source evangelist
> BitPay, Inc.      https://bitpay.com/
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Flow-based real-time traffic analytics software. Cisco certified tool.
> Monitor traffic, SLAs, QoS, Medianet, WAAS etc. with NetFlow Analyzer
> Customize your own dashboards, set traffic alerts and generate reports.
> Network behavioral analysis & security monitoring. All-in-one tool.
>
> http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=126839071&iu=/4140/ostg.clktrk
> _______________________________________________
> Bitcoin-development mailing list
> Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development
>

--001a11c1640e2863b604f38fb8ce
Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<p dir=3D"ltr">Only if you view bitcoin as no more than a payment network.<=
/p>
<div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Mar 1, 2014 10:24 AM, &quot;Jeff Garzik&quot;=
 &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:jgarzik@bitpay.com">jgarzik@bitpay.com</a>&gt; wrote=
:<br type=3D"attribution"><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin=
:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
This is wandering far off-topic for this mailing list.<br>
<br>
On Sat, Mar 1, 2014 at 12:45 PM, Troy Benjegerdes &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:hoz=
er@hozed.org">hozer@hozed.org</a>&gt; wrote:<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt; You can make the same argument against Bitcoin itself you kno=
w...<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt; A Bitmessage-like network would be trivial to front-run via a=
 sybil<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt; attack. It&#39;s the fundemental problem with marketplaces - =
the data<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt; they&#39;re trying to publish has to be public.<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; I don&#39;t see the Bitcoin analogy...<br>
&gt;&gt; Anyway, I still don&#39;t think the seller cares, if he sells at t=
he price<br>
&gt;&gt; he was asking, what would he care about &quot;front running&quot; =
those parallel<br>
&gt;&gt; networks.<br>
&gt;&gt; I&#39;ve seen many street markets without &quot;public information=
&quot; and they<br>
&gt;&gt; work just well.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; The spot price for ammonia fertilizer, refined gasoline at terminals,<=
br>
&gt; and price of tea in china are not &#39;public information&#39;, yet th=
ese are<br>
&gt; some of the largest traded commodities in the world, far exceeding<br>
&gt; the drop in the bucket that all cryptocoin transactions make.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; I&#39;d further argue that the *actual* price of corn (cash bid price =
at<br>
&gt; elevators and ethanol plants) is not public information either. There<=
br>
&gt; is a great deal of money traded in collecting and then distributing th=
e<br>
&gt; &#39;cleared price&#39; information. Have a look at<br>
&gt; <a href=3D"http://www.interquote.com/template.cfm?navgroup=3Daboutlist=
&amp;urlcode=3D12&amp;view=3D1" target=3D"_blank">http://www.interquote.com=
/template.cfm?navgroup=3Daboutlist&amp;urlcode=3D12&amp;view=3D1</a><br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; I don&#39;t think this will be a tragedy, because like we=
 discussed on<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; IRC, I don&#39;t think the primary goal of markets is pri=
ce discovery, but<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; trade itself.<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; About historic data, the actual trades are always public,=
 and some<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; kind of &quot;archivers&quot; could collect and maintain =
old orders for historic<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; bid and asks, etc.<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt; And again, how do you know that record is honest? Fact is wit=
hout<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt; proof-of-publication you just don&#39;t.<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; Well, the trades that appeared in the chain actually occurred.<br>
&gt;&gt; Buying to yourself at fake prices? Be careful, the miner could jus=
t<br>
&gt;&gt; separate the order and fill it himself. Or anyone paying a higher =
fee,<br>
&gt;&gt; for that matter.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; You just made my long-term strategic argument for investing in my own<=
br>
&gt; mining hardware so I can be sure to trade reliably.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; Again, you haven&#39;t addressed why the seller cares more about &=
quot;accurate<br>
&gt;&gt; historic market data&quot; than just his own fees and sell.<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt; You mean a reverse nLockTime that makes a transaction invalid=
 after a<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt; certain amount of time - that&#39;s dangerous in a reorg unfo=
rtunately as it<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt; can make transactions permenantly invalid.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; People who take money from buyers and sellers care most about &#39;acc=
urate<br>
&gt; historic market data&#39;. I just want to exchange my corn for e85, fe=
rtilizer,<br>
&gt; and electricity, and audit the code that runs accounting for the excha=
nge.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; I really don&#39;t give a shit if there is &#39;accurate historic mark=
et data&#39; as<br>
&gt; long as **MY** personal trade data is accurate and I got a good enough=
 price,<br>
&gt; and I know who I&#39;m dealing with.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; I know someone smarter than me and with more money, market leverage, a=
nd<br>
&gt; political connections **WILL** game the system and distort the market =
data<br>
&gt; history so they can take more money from buyers and sellers without ac=
tually<br>
&gt; doing some usefull market function.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; As long as use buyers and sellers can see the code, and have a good ey=
e for<br>
&gt; knowing when someone&#39;s pushing the market around, we can just put =
our orders<br>
&gt; in and relieve some speculators of their money.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; Just get me working code for cross-chain trades, and we&#39;ll work on=
 the<br>
&gt; accurate historic data problem later.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; ----------------------------------------------------------------------=
------<br>
&gt; Troy Benjegerdes =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 &#39;da hozer&#39; =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0<a href=3D"mailto:hozer@hozed.org">hozer@hozed.org</a><br>
&gt; 7 elements =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0earth::water::air::fire::mind::spirit::=
soul =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0<a href=3D"http://grid.coop" target=3D"_bla=
nk">grid.coop</a><br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Never pick a fight with someone who buys ink by t=
he barrel,<br>
&gt; =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0nor try buy a hacker who makes money=
 by the megahash<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; ----------------------------------------------------------------------=
--------<br>
&gt; Flow-based real-time traffic analytics software. Cisco certified tool.=
<br>
&gt; Monitor traffic, SLAs, QoS, Medianet, WAAS etc. with NetFlow Analyzer<=
br>
&gt; Customize your own dashboards, set traffic alerts and generate reports=
.<br>
&gt; Network behavioral analysis &amp; security monitoring. All-in-one tool=
.<br>
&gt; <a href=3D"http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=3D126839071&a=
mp;iu=3D/4140/ostg.clktrk" target=3D"_blank">http://pubads.g.doubleclick.ne=
t/gampad/clk?id=3D126839071&amp;iu=3D/4140/ostg.clktrk</a><br>
&gt; _______________________________________________<br>
&gt; Bitcoin-development mailing list<br>
&gt; <a href=3D"mailto:Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net">Bitcoin-d=
evelopment@lists.sourceforge.net</a><br>
&gt; <a href=3D"https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-develo=
pment" target=3D"_blank">https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitco=
in-development</a><br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
--<br>
Jeff Garzik<br>
Bitcoin core developer and open source evangelist<br>
BitPay, Inc. =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0<a href=3D"https://bitpay.com/" target=3D"=
_blank">https://bitpay.com/</a><br>
<br>
---------------------------------------------------------------------------=
---<br>
Flow-based real-time traffic analytics software. Cisco certified tool.<br>
Monitor traffic, SLAs, QoS, Medianet, WAAS etc. with NetFlow Analyzer<br>
Customize your own dashboards, set traffic alerts and generate reports.<br>
Network behavioral analysis &amp; security monitoring. All-in-one tool.<br>
<a href=3D"http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=3D126839071&amp;iu=
=3D/4140/ostg.clktrk" target=3D"_blank">http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gam=
pad/clk?id=3D126839071&amp;iu=3D/4140/ostg.clktrk</a><br>
_______________________________________________<br>
Bitcoin-development mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net">Bitcoin-develo=
pment@lists.sourceforge.net</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development=
" target=3D"_blank">https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-de=
velopment</a><br>
</blockquote></div>

--001a11c1640e2863b604f38fb8ce--