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From: Daniel Lipshitz <daniel@gap600.com>
Date: Fri, 2 Dec 2022 08:59:01 +0200
Message-ID: <CACkWPs_fgjkF8wJxUVex=R4sS-B6R+UgtqVQU0T-8vzpHjWT2Q@mail.gmail.com>
To: Antoine Riard <antoine.riard@gmail.com>
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Cc: Bitcoin Protocol Discussion <bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org>
Subject: Re: [bitcoin-dev] [Opt-in full-RBF] Zero-conf apps in immediate
	danger
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HI Antoine

Thank you for all the references - I agree with Sergej
statement "opportunity makes the thief"

The 1.5M trxs are all BTC which our clients query, I dont have specifics
for those trxs i.e. reasons for not being confirmed. However we target to
achieve +90% confirmation of trxs for our clients. Fee rates the
transactions generally follow standard fee/rate policy similar to all
industry recommendations, we recommend higher priority fee rate but approve
trxs well below that level. I would say we havent seen a trx with medium
fee rate be double spend - this is excluding race attacks or as you
mentioned ancestral unconfirmed attacks.

Opt in RBF is used in many ways to try to do double spends - i.e with
ancestral attacks inputs which are not confirmed, and also publishing the
RBF first and then the straight trxs later. In general double spends excl
Optin RBF does not occur alot at all - but the presence of a potential risk
causes everyone to wait back for confirmations.

Looking at a sample of latest 4.3M trxs, I can see crica 11k trxs which
seem to be double spent vast majority of these will be RBF, also on trx
that are high risk and we dont confirm the attacker has no incentive to
follow through with the second trxs.

I see quite a bit of reference to the benefit to miners for RBF - I would
think this cash flow benefit is not significant but I would suggest getting
input from a miner themselves.

Best
Daniel

________________________________

Daniel Lipshitz
GAP600| www.gap600.com
Phone: +44 113 4900 117
Skype: daniellipshitz123
Twitter: @daniellipshitz


On Fri, Dec 2, 2022 at 3:52 AM Antoine Riard <antoine.riard@gmail.com>
wrote:

> Hi Daniel,
>
> From my understanding of GAP600, you're operating a zero-conf risk
> analysis business, which is integrated and leveraged by payment
> processors/liquidity providers and merchants. A deployment of fullrbf by
> enough full-node operators and a subset of the mining hashrate would lowe=
r
> the cost of double-spend attack by lamda users, therefore increasing the
> risk exposure of your users. This increased risk exposure could lead you =
to
> alter the acceptance of incoming zero-conf transactions, AFAICT in a
> similar reasoning as exposed by Bitrefill earlier this year [0].
>
> About the statistics you're asking for considerations, few further
> questions, on those 1.5M transactions per month, a) how many are
> Bitcoin-only (as I understand to be multi-cryptocurrencies), b) how many
> are excluded from zeroconf due to factors like RBF, long-chain of
> unconfirmed ancestors or too high-value and c) what has been the average
> feerate (assuming a standard size of 200 bytes) ?
>
> My personal position on fullrbf is still the same as expressed in #26525
> [1]. As a community, I think we still don't have conceptual consensus on
> deploying full-rbf, neither to remove it. In the direction of removing th=
e
> current option from Bitcoin Core, I think the prerequisite to address are
> the qualification of enough economic flows at risk and the presence of a
> sizable loss in miners income. Beyond that, I think there is still the op=
en
> question if we (we, as the Bitcoin protocol development community, with a=
ll
> its stakeholders) should restrain user choice in policy settings in the
> name of preserving mining income and established use-case stability.
>
> To recall, the original technical motivation of this option, and the wide=
r
> smoother deployment was to address a DoS vector affecting another class o=
f
> use-case: multi-party transactions like coinjoin and contracting protocol=
s
> like Lightning [2] [3]. All of them expect to generate economic flows and
> corresponding mining income. Since then, alternative paths to solve this
> DoS vector have been devised, all with their own trade-offs and conceptua=
l
> issues [4] [5].
>
> Best,
> Antoine
>
> [0]
> https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/bitcoin-dev/2022-October/0210=
70.html
> [1] https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/26525#issuecomment-1319499006
> [2]
> https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/bitcoin-dev/2022-June/020557.=
html
> [3]
> https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/lightning-dev/2021-May/003033=
.html
> [4]
> https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/bitcoin-dev/2022-October/0211=
35.html
> [5]
> https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/bitcoin-dev/2022-November/021=
144.html
>
> Le jeu. 1 d=C3=A9c. 2022 =C3=A0 07:32, Daniel Lipshitz via bitcoin-dev <
> bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org> a =C3=A9crit :
>
>> HI All
>>
>> I am the CEO of GAP600. We guarantee zero confirmed Bitcoin and other
>> crypto  transactions, BTC is a primary part of our business. Our guarant=
ee
>> enables our customers to recognise zero-conf deposits. We reimburse our
>> clients value of the trx should we get it wrong and a transaction we
>> confirmed gets double spent.
>>
>> Should full RBF become default enabled and significantly adopted this
>> would have a major impact on the capacity to accept zerof confs on mainn=
et.
>> With the end result being this use case will be forced to move to a
>> different chain, with lightning being just another option.
>>
>> I wanted to share some statistics about how significant this use case is=
.
>> GAP600 clients are primarily payment processors and non custodial
>> liquidity providers; you can see some of our clients on our site
>> www.gap600.com. There are also merchants who have developed their own
>> tools so GAP600 statistics are only a subset of the full use case.
>>
>> I do not know of any wallet, exchange or custodian who accepts zero conf
>> without having some sort of solution in place. The market seems to be fu=
lly
>> aware of the risks of zero-conf. The opt-RBF seems to be a solution whic=
h
>> gives a clear free choice for actors.
>>
>> Statistics for consideration as a sample of the zero conf use case -
>>
>>
>>    1. As of end of Nov 2022 - GAP600 has processed i.e responded to
>>    circa 15M transactions
>>    2. These transactions have a cumulative value of 2.3B USD value.
>>    3. We currently are seeing circa 1.5M transactions queired per month.
>>
>>
>> It's a sizable amount of trxs on mainet and we are by no means the full
>> market of platforms accepting zero-conf.  I realise there are other
>> considerations which BTC has,  I would urge you to take into account the
>> major risk being placed on this significant market share when deciding t=
o
>> make this feature default enabled and encouraging full adoption.
>>
>> Thank you for your consideration
>> Daniel
>> ________________________________
>>
>> Daniel Lipshitz
>> GAP600| www.gap600.com
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> bitcoin-dev mailing list
>> bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org
>> https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev
>>
>

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Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"ltr">HI=C2=A0Antoine<div><br></div><div>Thank you for all the r=
eferences - I agree with Sergej statement=C2=A0&quot;opportunity makes the =
thief&quot;</div><div><br></div><div>The 1.5M trxs are all BTC which our cl=
ients query, I dont have specifics for those trxs i.e. reasons for not bein=
g confirmed. However we target to achieve +90% confirmation of trxs for our=
 clients. Fee rates the transactions generally follow standard fee/rate pol=
icy similar to all industry recommendations, we recommend higher priority f=
ee rate but approve trxs well below that level. I would say we havent=C2=A0=
seen a trx with medium fee rate be double spend - this is excluding=C2=A0ra=
ce attacks or as you mentioned ancestral=C2=A0unconfirmed attacks.</div><di=
v><br></div><div>Opt in RBF is used in many ways to try to do double spends=
 - i.e with ancestral=C2=A0attacks inputs which are not confirmed, and also=
 publishing the RBF first and then the straight trxs later. In general doub=
le spends excl Optin=C2=A0RBF does not occur alot at all - but the presence=
 of a potential risk causes=C2=A0everyone to wait back for confirmations.</=
div><div><br></div><div>Looking at a sample of latest 4.3M trxs, I can see =
crica 11k trxs which seem to be double spent vast majority of these will be=
 RBF, also on trx that are high risk and we dont confirm the attacker has n=
o incentive to follow through with the second trxs.</div><div><br></div><di=
v>I see quite a bit of reference to the benefit to miners for RBF - I would=
 think this cash flow benefit is not significant=C2=A0but I would suggest g=
etting input from a miner themselves.</div><div><span style=3D"font-size:12=
.8px"><br></span></div><div><span style=3D"font-size:12.8px">Best</span></d=
iv><div><span style=3D"font-size:12.8px">Daniel</span></div><br class=3D"gm=
ail-Apple-interchange-newline"><div><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_signatu=
re" data-smartmail=3D"gmail_signature"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div><div dir=3D"lt=
r"><div style=3D"font-size:12.8px">________________________________</div><d=
iv style=3D"font-size:12.8px"><br></div><div style=3D"font-size:12.8px"><fo=
nt face=3D"tahoma, sans-serif">Daniel Lipshitz</font></div><div style=3D"fo=
nt-size:12.8px;color:rgb(0,0,0)"><font face=3D"tahoma, sans-serif">GAP600|=
=C2=A0<a href=3D"http://www.gap600.com/" target=3D"_blank">www.gap600.com</=
a></font></div><div style=3D"font-size:12.8px;color:rgb(0,0,0)"><font face=
=3D"tahoma, sans-serif">Phone:=C2=A0</font><span style=3D"font-family:tahom=
a,sans-serif;font-size:12.8px">+44 113 4900 117</span></div><div style=3D"f=
ont-size:12.8px;color:rgb(0,0,0)"><font face=3D"tahoma, sans-serif">Skype: =
daniellipshitz123</font></div><div style=3D"font-size:12.8px;color:rgb(0,0,=
0)"><font face=3D"tahoma, sans-serif">Twitter: @daniellipshitz</font></div>=
</div></div></div></div></div><br></div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div=
 dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Fri, Dec 2, 2022 at 3:52 AM Antoine Ri=
ard &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:antoine.riard@gmail.com">antoine.riard@gmail.com<=
/a>&gt; wrote:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0=
px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><=
div dir=3D"ltr">Hi Daniel,<br><br>From my understanding of GAP600, you&#39;=
re operating a zero-conf risk analysis business, which is integrated and le=
veraged by payment processors/liquidity providers and merchants. A deployme=
nt of fullrbf by enough full-node operators and a subset of the mining hash=
rate would lower the cost of double-spend attack by lamda users, therefore =
increasing the risk exposure of your users. This increased risk exposure co=
uld lead you to alter the acceptance of incoming zero-conf transactions, AF=
AICT in a similar reasoning as exposed by Bitrefill earlier this year [0].<=
br><br>About the statistics you&#39;re asking for considerations, few furth=
er questions, on those 1.5M transactions per month, a) how many are Bitcoin=
-only (as I understand to be multi-cryptocurrencies), b) how many are exclu=
ded from zeroconf due to factors like RBF, long-chain of unconfirmed ancest=
ors or too high-value and c) what has been the average feerate (assuming a =
standard size of 200 bytes) ?<br><br>My personal position on fullrbf is sti=
ll the same as expressed in #26525 [1]. As a community, I think we still do=
n&#39;t have conceptual consensus on deploying full-rbf, neither to remove =
it. In the direction of removing the current option from Bitcoin Core, I th=
ink the prerequisite to address are the qualification of enough economic fl=
ows at risk and the presence of a sizable loss in miners income. Beyond tha=
t, I think there is still the open question if we (we, as the Bitcoin proto=
col development community, with all its stakeholders) should restrain user =
choice in policy settings in the name of preserving mining income and estab=
lished use-case stability.<br><br>To recall, the original technical motivat=
ion of this option, and the wider smoother deployment was to address a DoS =
vector affecting another class of use-case: multi-party transactions like c=
oinjoin and contracting protocols like Lightning [2] [3]. All of them expec=
t to generate economic flows and corresponding mining income. Since then, a=
lternative paths to solve this DoS vector have been devised, all with their=
 own trade-offs and conceptual issues [4] [5].<br><br>Best,<br>Antoine<br><=
br>[0] <a href=3D"https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/bitcoin-dev/2=
022-October/021070.html" target=3D"_blank">https://lists.linuxfoundation.or=
g/pipermail/bitcoin-dev/2022-October/021070.html</a><br>[1] <a href=3D"http=
s://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/26525#issuecomment-1319499006" target=
=3D"_blank">https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/26525#issuecomment-1319=
499006</a><br>[2] <a href=3D"https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/bi=
tcoin-dev/2022-June/020557.html" target=3D"_blank">https://lists.linuxfound=
ation.org/pipermail/bitcoin-dev/2022-June/020557.html</a><br>[3] <a href=3D=
"https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/lightning-dev/2021-May/003033.=
html" target=3D"_blank">https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/lightni=
ng-dev/2021-May/003033.html</a><br>[4] <a href=3D"https://lists.linuxfounda=
tion.org/pipermail/bitcoin-dev/2022-October/021135.html" target=3D"_blank">=
https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/bitcoin-dev/2022-October/021135=
.html</a><br>[5] <a href=3D"https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/bit=
coin-dev/2022-November/021144.html" target=3D"_blank">https://lists.linuxfo=
undation.org/pipermail/bitcoin-dev/2022-November/021144.html</a><br></div><=
br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">Le=C2=
=A0jeu. 1 d=C3=A9c. 2022 =C3=A0=C2=A007:32, Daniel Lipshitz via bitcoin-dev=
 &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org" target=3D"_bl=
ank">bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org</a>&gt; a =C3=A9crit=C2=A0:<br><=
/div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;bo=
rder-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr">HI =
All<div><br></div><div>I am the CEO of GAP600. We guarantee zero confirmed =
Bitcoin and other crypto=C2=A0 transactions, BTC is a primary part of our b=
usiness. Our guarantee enables our customers to recognise zero-conf deposit=
s. We reimburse our clients value of the trx should we get it wrong and a t=
ransaction we confirmed gets double spent.</div><div><br></div><div>Should =
full RBF become default enabled and significantly adopted this would have a=
 major impact on the capacity to accept zerof confs on mainnet. With the en=
d result being this use case will be forced to move to a different chain, w=
ith lightning being just another=C2=A0option.</div><div><br></div><div>I wa=
nted to share some statistics about how significant this use case is.=C2=A0=
</div><div>GAP600 clients are primarily payment processors and non custodia=
l liquidity=C2=A0providers; you can see some of our clients on our site <a =
href=3D"http://www.gap600.com" target=3D"_blank">www.gap600.com</a>. There =
are also merchants who have developed their own tools so GAP600 statistics =
are only a subset of the full use case.=C2=A0</div><div><br></div><div>I do=
 not know of any wallet, exchange or custodian who accepts zero conf withou=
t having some sort of solution=C2=A0in place. The market seems to be fully =
aware of the risks of zero-conf. The opt-RBF seems to be a solution which g=
ives a clear free choice for actors.</div><div><br></div><div>Statistics fo=
r consideration as a sample of the zero conf use case -=C2=A0</div><div><br=
></div><div><ol><li>As of end of Nov 2022 - GAP600 has processed i.e respon=
ded to circa 15M transactions</li><li>These transactions have a cumulative =
value of 2.3B USD value.=C2=A0</li><li>We currently are seeing circa 1.5M t=
ransactions queired per month.=C2=A0</li></ol></div><div><br></div><div>It&=
#39;s a sizable amount of trxs on mainet and we are by no means the full ma=
rket of platforms accepting zero-conf.=C2=A0=C2=A0I realise there are other=
 considerations which BTC has,=C2=A0 I would urge you to take into account =
the major risk being placed on this significant market share when deciding =
to make this feature default enabled and encouraging=C2=A0full adoption.</d=
iv><div><br></div><div>Thank you for your consideration</div><div>Daniel</d=
iv><div><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div style=3D"fo=
nt-size:12.8px">________________________________</div><div style=3D"font-si=
ze:12.8px"><br></div><div style=3D"font-size:12.8px"><font face=3D"tahoma, =
sans-serif">Daniel Lipshitz</font></div><div style=3D"font-size:12.8px;colo=
r:rgb(0,0,0)"><font face=3D"tahoma, sans-serif">GAP600|=C2=A0<a href=3D"htt=
p://www.gap600.com/" target=3D"_blank">www.gap600.com</a></font></div><div =
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