1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
26
27
28
29
30
31
32
33
34
35
36
37
38
39
40
41
42
43
44
45
46
47
48
49
50
51
52
53
54
55
56
57
58
59
60
61
62
63
64
65
66
67
68
69
70
71
72
73
74
75
76
77
78
79
80
81
82
83
84
85
86
87
88
89
90
91
92
93
94
95
96
97
98
99
100
101
102
103
104
105
106
107
108
109
110
111
112
113
114
115
116
117
118
119
120
121
122
123
124
125
126
127
128
129
130
131
132
133
134
135
136
137
138
139
140
141
142
143
144
145
146
147
148
149
150
151
152
153
154
155
156
157
158
159
160
161
162
163
164
165
166
167
168
169
170
171
172
173
174
175
176
177
178
179
180
181
182
183
184
185
186
187
188
189
190
191
192
193
194
195
196
197
198
199
200
201
202
203
204
205
206
207
208
209
210
211
212
213
214
215
216
217
218
219
220
221
222
223
224
225
226
227
228
229
230
231
232
233
234
235
236
237
238
239
240
241
242
243
244
245
246
247
248
249
250
251
252
253
254
255
256
257
258
|
Delivery-date: Tue, 02 Apr 2024 06:57:56 -0700
Received: from mail-oo1-f64.google.com ([209.85.161.64])
by mail.fairlystable.org with esmtps (TLS1.3) tls TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_128_GCM_SHA256
(Exim 4.94.2)
(envelope-from <bitcoindev+bncBDWIFPUA4ICRBXE5WCYAMGQE5TLEF7A@googlegroups.com>)
id 1rreeB-0000Go-Pb
for bitcoindev@gnusha.org; Tue, 02 Apr 2024 06:57:56 -0700
Received: by mail-oo1-f64.google.com with SMTP id 006d021491bc7-5a7c3a8eacdsf1271596eaf.1
for <bitcoindev@gnusha.org>; Tue, 02 Apr 2024 06:57:55 -0700 (PDT)
ARC-Seal: i=2; a=rsa-sha256; t=1712066269; cv=pass;
d=google.com; s=arc-20160816;
b=EDB/CiDdO0pZ0SSiKG4U0FaZAlzsNiCXBdvm6O5f9TIyk/zPUy7NLRfYxmqfPDoXtQ
zW09kEbYNuZzX8O0KlVGhdh5WmZWk9efGFNw8x8hMEm3boNCdaPtx7384QKpdZpPM/4J
KYWXg0ONymRYYGm51MJkjR892+crC7RuPNTHgB5g23QlQQ3xnAyMfzlm+L2jvxKm+YUF
4qjMjwmTr/6SRfdn8rUq4FBiHmKt9c+A7+MRDzdgxBjOkY2GBenwfj6c5NITQfPws5Fe
q5wlSKq6sXw/As9Xf7VQ8PDqhjS+5jdqOJElCzf/W7mQftFPtj/qmbiK4BlTYAa+75uS
id9g==
ARC-Message-Signature: i=2; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=google.com; s=arc-20160816;
h=list-unsubscribe:list-subscribe:list-archive:list-help:list-post
:list-id:mailing-list:precedence:mime-version
:content-transfer-encoding:references:in-reply-to:date:cc:to:from
:subject:message-id:sender:dkim-signature;
bh=HZcnGtmTK1EP3vSoZa9MwOBtDUgi77lUnSJsPwg7cSU=;
fh=+yOG0Qkt/xiXplWqM6mozEgNGff3X1gL1rnXPYfG2S8=;
b=XtPdwyVmuhPr16aBTKIdWuQCe1+iEoSDYJuXqwpXScaiwrmsdE7lo+fczhYSNQLQ5g
8ZZHv5R873AOBB98am8rStEH8xNjSoRNTXZhJla0od/jpw9C2BmW81ecFuEryjVtRdBU
LM6Fic0zAeLq4pAwIbxnl8vwtWvLnMW9SQBVKb7wvA5ke7lvJ8raEX+V8QsSEZelgOIn
8ClynFhhjO208YjUuh0MJrOYrarkBVYlvavqlEsv/V58yV2TLPLoonEylh/KWa5wW48w
1ByQ3D2OC5OqJYDKvW8b0x5L8PM6e7pmmbReG3CxrCy+zvxZy/blG/4R5Fa7NCspM5xo
wfaw==;
darn=gnusha.org
ARC-Authentication-Results: i=2; gmr-mx.google.com;
dkim=pass header.i=@timruffing.de header.s=MBO0001 header.b=n8WWRdHj;
spf=pass (google.com: domain of crypto@timruffing.de designates 2001:67c:2050:0:465::102 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=crypto@timruffing.de
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed;
d=googlegroups.com; s=20230601; t=1712066269; x=1712671069; darn=gnusha.org;
h=list-unsubscribe:list-subscribe:list-archive:list-help:list-post
:list-id:mailing-list:precedence:x-original-authentication-results
:x-original-sender:mime-version:content-transfer-encoding:references
:in-reply-to:date:cc:to:from:subject:message-id:sender:from:to:cc
:subject:date:message-id:reply-to;
bh=HZcnGtmTK1EP3vSoZa9MwOBtDUgi77lUnSJsPwg7cSU=;
b=u4HzMM/248uLLb3Kkii5gXYQ9isSIwA6JCPoyxqJQaLnCSBLhZn8PQ6v94Gbwa1ZW2
jPVnUR71vwptswvaGBsRXeWNFmSM8tk6/GoYlch2bZR+umgupG3eNrSqlsd3h2onzv/0
dZ9ivBhzqMWe1WOuPrNyPyHcWUQ4Hiaghue/PUY7lLnQkxeqTs3NZnIOwAvUIEH1aWIH
yDm7zvnZ8Pl9342Kgf1cWwujqcBYL0rJbnK4eE6qUtQSi7DFK2eNzhskINfWQQkPizfe
2tX5lxifvc6FIHqSo0yy4Jc+JBC2Oc9gX5joZnZWK+LoRcv8me/fR8/bfvHUUzCHTPG7
14sw==
X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed;
d=1e100.net; s=20230601; t=1712066269; x=1712671069;
h=list-unsubscribe:list-subscribe:list-archive:list-help:list-post
:list-id:mailing-list:precedence:x-original-authentication-results
:x-original-sender:mime-version:content-transfer-encoding:references
:in-reply-to:date:cc:to:from:subject:message-id:x-beenthere
:x-gm-message-state:sender:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id
:reply-to;
bh=HZcnGtmTK1EP3vSoZa9MwOBtDUgi77lUnSJsPwg7cSU=;
b=JnrnjV9TCxXl7q33xKthfcdnnlLYivS4wzWdqAM0Y2h8T6IGdLDtbtIG+gToAVX/lY
gfwq5d7z2P/8YtIWdCMx8Uue3f4FHhRhYO8xRrG9o1xz8aF3q3WJTILwj8ObV5pQOcz+
cYqaZx3axY/NfMPzOXMv9F9g8RVM3wQG8ImxmQzdrbbLnTIC40gEIYQYT7cUCrQwdCpZ
PjsCuZ3YJxHk38DKtM/uqEPL5XHkCKTrDRQD55lqOA+JlizoZoIetPT6zLwQlTMyNPCV
eBf8J1oWI7WLL/SdwM+Q10uE01ADQkX6ycOjXdxj2Z9NRCQ9vJ83purR7xbVk5ppDQ4N
p6Kw==
Sender: bitcoindev@googlegroups.com
X-Forwarded-Encrypted: i=2; AJvYcCXxnLZZqvmlZ+GmekP7O9JsYOP4TiTXLQn3nMozStq+g8yrHuFkN2smNBnQY/JMwXwEUE1xonzzziiu0Yjj++IBdUCTN1k=
X-Gm-Message-State: AOJu0YzCKc3mtMOqw8WzTHj5p1BmTagKjz6nzGA04PhvblyKpCRuBfs3
5MNjIe4KV6cFpg/09lyqWL3l0CdWmMe0gaNiOu/UwU6T7YRLBUE2
X-Google-Smtp-Source: AGHT+IFJuOThqySt0O5Ep1WSwCJMEG99bkNPaMIqaWLkTeKEhCQpYnCK2QHe6TZwY+KEDWoMEDLJew==
X-Received: by 2002:a4a:ec45:0:b0:5a1:6cb9:d6f0 with SMTP id q5-20020a4aec45000000b005a16cb9d6f0mr13053505ooj.1.1712066269396;
Tue, 02 Apr 2024 06:57:49 -0700 (PDT)
X-BeenThere: bitcoindev@googlegroups.com
Received: by 2002:a4a:4305:0:b0:5a4:8287:2eb7 with SMTP id k5-20020a4a4305000000b005a482872eb7ls1519506ooj.1.-pod-prod-00-us;
Tue, 02 Apr 2024 06:57:48 -0700 (PDT)
X-Forwarded-Encrypted: i=2; AJvYcCU71xwsz8EWVKzQnjt3MFmaDcMKDVCqbw0IpSlM2nv5ZFvezHQ/qTrue1UQb5qTIPP1GY0UApU4C53fMCj/rR9CaJl6JKK5tT8ddEs=
X-Received: by 2002:a05:6808:309c:b0:3c4:da66:235e with SMTP id bl28-20020a056808309c00b003c4da66235emr116032oib.3.1712066268408;
Tue, 02 Apr 2024 06:57:48 -0700 (PDT)
Received: by 2002:a05:6808:219c:b0:3c3:cc09:ef6d with SMTP id 5614622812f47-3c3ef57ad9emsb6e;
Tue, 2 Apr 2024 06:17:50 -0700 (PDT)
X-Forwarded-Encrypted: i=2; AJvYcCXCXfpbFRczmrY9I3rP3k411snfno1hkekEadU7QH4vvRUTGyWJVsTCWb7WV5twbZgHG/tlrqr6hOLQ1blXXDXZAeK/G5eMo/nr0MM=
X-Received: by 2002:a05:6e02:1d02:b0:368:9b5c:1c1c with SMTP id i2-20020a056e021d0200b003689b5c1c1cmr16590264ila.9.1712063868257;
Tue, 02 Apr 2024 06:17:48 -0700 (PDT)
ARC-Seal: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; t=1712063868; cv=none;
d=google.com; s=arc-20160816;
b=JJ29v3HDWZmDJE58/QUyXoz/4NOCXy7l/AcRR4BNZdQUOdFiwSYgHBSUt++Hpixxh9
aF7gZTVxS8YYejriMhPz2DbL9lp4A0gkx0gIWP0I7Zq72T3LP/+3FgK5U2dO/kpXycPX
6l07TG/YB3RjggWxDR3t50Bx5Z5amH1intEqFQSvICg0PduHJmxMEgvMQ1lSF5uDD3PB
dGjM2PJii2p5/JMX8BGRKPee8r1JBxC1oIjT4giuNd04lABFXgf6/Hm1iXftCeSjteWP
V5svWeOAZHN1a74ZMA00i6ry3+A7cVBgochzx/tV9TAi9C6RqacOa6/h2xm4I5F2TlJJ
Ho0A==
ARC-Message-Signature: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=google.com; s=arc-20160816;
h=mime-version:content-transfer-encoding:references:in-reply-to:date
:cc:to:from:subject:message-id:dkim-signature;
bh=Puiy0y3Fk0zOeNfbsrOIJ2FOXsD0a+KhJGiBFNXMaes=;
fh=6S0nD0rQqe1/dYD5ZmKSz9nnw3upOfho+Fq3cPOom9A=;
b=Bg1ihmKCphH+QhBM9eZi9kI+whW7Guulh+NX171i4GmQ19/88HsFsFgJK0umFfG2hz
ZKo0dB++ewlmBwHZHEl0oDCbRmTZ/GRGT/K4lCQs65AO2V/W9rO3ntCuKKY2mjra7kVX
sVah9x8atkS03FdYzWucUZvH7EXWG9E+sWyYOYutEoXCgUYGhKKIIZBLC5mnU3HNiJQL
crvqVEK2FFxj1500QdqNhI3e+L+gr85sseIEAwS6xglroRbyYdX9CHQnbBf4karev2iR
5wFmlQBvTCTbj9QK2xjvzneIKyyp/M3Md04JuIWAmzX9yO+H33AQm2Tdhy81h3POIyVV
+cvg==;
dara=google.com
ARC-Authentication-Results: i=1; gmr-mx.google.com;
dkim=pass header.i=@timruffing.de header.s=MBO0001 header.b=n8WWRdHj;
spf=pass (google.com: domain of crypto@timruffing.de designates 2001:67c:2050:0:465::102 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=crypto@timruffing.de
Received: from mout-p-102.mailbox.org (mout-p-102.mailbox.org. [2001:67c:2050:0:465::102])
by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id r11-20020a92c50b000000b003699900693dsi370905ilg.1.2024.04.02.06.17.47
for <bitcoindev@googlegroups.com>
(version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 bits=256/256);
Tue, 02 Apr 2024 06:17:47 -0700 (PDT)
Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of crypto@timruffing.de designates 2001:67c:2050:0:465::102 as permitted sender) client-ip=2001:67c:2050:0:465::102;
Received: from smtp202.mailbox.org (smtp202.mailbox.org [IPv6:2001:67c:2050:b231:465::202])
(using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits)
key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256)
(No client certificate requested)
by mout-p-102.mailbox.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4V87j4057Cz9sq6;
Tue, 2 Apr 2024 15:17:44 +0200 (CEST)
Message-ID: <59fa94cea6f70e02b1ce0da07ae230670730171c.camel@timruffing.de>
Subject: [bitcoindev] Time for an update to BIP2?
From: Tim Ruffing <crypto@timruffing.de>
To: Matt Corallo <lf-lists@mattcorallo.com>, Brandon Black
<freedom@reardencode.com>
Cc: Murch <murch@murch.one>, bitcoindev@googlegroups.com
Date: Tue, 02 Apr 2024 15:17:40 +0200
In-Reply-To: <9ebd08b0-7680-4896-aad3-1c225b764bcb@mattcorallo.com>
References: <2092f7ff-4860-47f8-ba1a-c9d97927551e@achow101.com>
<e4048607-64b7-4772-b74e-4566a4b50bc0n@googlegroups.com>
<9288df7b-f2e9-4106-b843-c1ff8f8a62a3@dashjr.org>
<42e6c1d1d39d811e2fe7c4c5ce6e09c705bd3dbb.camel@timruffing.de>
<d1e7183c-30e6-4f1a-8fd6-cddc46f129a2n@googlegroups.com>
<52a0d792-d99f-4360-ba34-0b12de183fef@murch.one>
<f9435999-42df-46b5-86e2-7ba0336a9bf2@mattcorallo.com>
<ZgWRu32FXzqqg69V@console>
<9ebd08b0-7680-4896-aad3-1c225b764bcb@mattcorallo.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
MIME-Version: 1.0
X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4V87j4057Cz9sq6
X-Original-Sender: crypto@timruffing.de
X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; dkim=pass
header.i=@timruffing.de header.s=MBO0001 header.b=n8WWRdHj; spf=pass
(google.com: domain of crypto@timruffing.de designates 2001:67c:2050:0:465::102
as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=crypto@timruffing.de
Precedence: list
Mailing-list: list bitcoindev@googlegroups.com; contact bitcoindev+owners@googlegroups.com
List-ID: <bitcoindev.googlegroups.com>
X-Google-Group-Id: 786775582512
List-Post: <https://groups.google.com/group/bitcoindev/post>, <mailto:bitcoindev@googlegroups.com>
List-Help: <https://groups.google.com/support/>, <mailto:bitcoindev+help@googlegroups.com>
List-Archive: <https://groups.google.com/group/bitcoindev
List-Subscribe: <https://groups.google.com/group/bitcoindev/subscribe>, <mailto:bitcoindev+subscribe@googlegroups.com>
List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:googlegroups-manage+786775582512+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com>,
<https://groups.google.com/group/bitcoindev/subscribe>
X-Spam-Score: -0.8 (/)
(Changing the subject line as this is mostly orthogonal to adding BIP
editors.)
On Thu, 2024-03-28 at 16:04 -0400, Matt Corallo wrote:
> BIP editors=20
> are not responsible for opining on the merit of a proposal. Their job
> is to assign numbers and=20
> occasionally suggest copy edits to ensure the documents are of high
> quality and readability.
As I said my previous email, this is what I'd prefer, but the current
BIP2, Section "BIP workflow" says this:
"The BIP editors will not unreasonably reject a BIP. Reasons for
rejecting BIPs include duplication of effort, disregard for formatting
rules, being too unfocused or too broad, being technically unsound, not
providing proper motivation or addressing backwards compatibility, or
not in keeping with the Bitcoin philosophy. For a BIP to be accepted it
must meet certain minimum criteria. It must be a clear and complete
description of the proposed enhancement. The enhancement must represent
a net improvement. The proposed implementation, if applicable, must be
solid and must not complicate the protocol unduly."
This is a lot of criteria for a simple editorial rule, hm? How could
any editor judge if an enhancement represents a net improvement without
opining on its merit? What's the Bitcoin philosophy?=20
By the way, Section "BIP Editor Responsibilities & Workflow" says this:
"For each new BIP that comes in an editor does the following:
- Read the BIP to check if it is ready: sound and complete. The ideas
must make technical sense, even if they don't seem likely to be
accepted.=C2=A0
- [...]"
Note how this is is (seemingly?) in conflict with the paragraph cited
further above. What is "acceptance"? Acceptance by the editor, by the
community (whoever that is), or by anyone else?
BIP2 has other problems (a lot of which date back to BIP1):
* It recommends licensing BIPs under BSD-2 or BSD-3, which are
software licenses. It's not even clear if they're applicable to
plain text. (The CC0 recommendation makes much more sense.)
* The Comments-URI thing is outdated and everyone seems to ignore it.
Comments-Summary is even weirder.
* "Informational BIPs do not necessarily represent a Bitcoin community
consensus or recommendation". Aha, does this imply that Standards
Track BIPs need to represent a Bitcoin community consensus or
recommendation?
* Ever tried to write pseudocode or LaTeX in mediawiki format? It's
more than annoying, believe me.
Moreover, the entire "BIP status field" section is an attempt at
formalizing and describing the process of changing Bitcoin. That leads
to statements like these that specify when a BIP should be "Final"=20
* "A soft-fork BIP strictly requires a clear miner majority expressed
by blockchain voting (eg, using BIP 9)." That statement is highly
controversial. The point is that it simply doesn't belong in BIP2.
* "API/RPC and application layer BIPs must be implemented by at least
two independent and compatible software applications." same here
* Peer services BIPs should be observed to be adopted by at least 1%
of public listening nodes for one month. =C2=A0
The problems are similar to the Comments-Summary field whose purpose is
to represent a community judgment of the BIP. It can have these values:
* No comments yet.
* Unanimously Recommended for implementation
* Unanimously Discourage for implementation
* Mostly Recommended for implementation, with some Discouragement
* Mostly Discouraged for implementation, with some Recommendation
There's a reason why noone really uses this. Like the Status field, it
requires that someone (the editor? BIP2 doesn't specify this) makes a
judgement that looks somewhat authoritative, because it will end up in
the BIP header/metadata.=20
I think we should simply drop anything that requires an examination of
the meat of the BIP, e.g., the Status and Comments-* fields, and the
requirement to check the meat of a BIP. Instead, we should work on a
new process BIP that merely describes a simple process of publishing
BIPs, in which the editors focus on purely formal and editorial issues
(e.g., formatting, license, readability, filtering spam, ...). It's
great when they guide BIP authors by providing feedback on the
presentation of an idea, or even on the idea itself, but they shouldn't
be required to make decisions based on the technical or philosophical
merit of a BIP.
I ask everyone to read BIP2 carefully before replying here:
https://github.com/bitcoin/bips/blob/master/bip-0002.mediawiki
Best,
Tim
--=20
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "=
Bitcoin Development Mailing List" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e=
mail to bitcoindev+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/=
bitcoindev/59fa94cea6f70e02b1ce0da07ae230670730171c.camel%40timruffing.de.
|
