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References: <86FA0255-1A81-4DA1-9B1A-E57AD4F1DAAD@sprovoost.nl> <E8225EAC-BED8-4840-8E3D-81A55C365209@voskuil.org>
In-Reply-To: <E8225EAC-BED8-4840-8E3D-81A55C365209@voskuil.org>
From: Ruben Somsen <rsomsen@gmail.com>
Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2025 17:11:40 +0200
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Message-ID: <CAPv7TjbEK8r8AQgzLvrwPmQHavU-ujgJqSz+7CFy_8W0_pwMvQ@mail.gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [bitcoindev] The Tragic Tale of BIP30
To: bitcoindev@googlegroups.com
Cc: Eric Voskuil <eric@voskuil.org>, Sjors Provoost <sjors@sprovoost.nl>, luke@dashjr.org
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Hi,

Replying to parts of all messages thus far.


>The obvious solution to this problem is to not create the problem in the
first place.

Yes, that is a fair point. Not removing the checkpoints is one way of
ensuring the consensus bug cannot be triggered. I'm agnostic about whether
having checkpoints is also a reason to forgo consensus checks such as
BIP30 (or my proposed alternative of checking the coinbase TXID for
uniqueness and ensuring no future collision). Even though checkpoints
essentially force your node to halt if something were invalid up until that
point, I still think there is value in being able to verify that the rules
were followed.


>Solution C could be to remove it, but restore the previous UTXO

Yes, as Sjors also pointed out, I do think it is best to be precise about
which of the duplicates you're keeping. In fact, it's probably required to
ensure the rolling UTXO set hash remains consistent.


>In the case of BIP30, one option could be to have a rule that says: if the
2014 checkpoint is missing, then enforce the BIP54 Consensus Cleanup
nLockTime rule from genesis. BIP34 can then simply go away.

I'm afraid it's not that simple. If you wanted to fork off from some
arbitrary point prior to the last checkpoint, you'd want to enforce the new
consensus rules from that exact point (not from genesis), but that requires
shipping the full node software with a hash for every possible block that
could be forked off from. It's roughly 8MB of data so it's not impossible,
and I even had this written up as an alternative solution, but I removed it
in favor of the solution I ended up describing.


Cheers,
Ruben

On Mon, Apr 28, 2025 at 2:39=E2=80=AFPM Eric Voskuil <eric@voskuil.org> wro=
te:

>
> > On Apr 28, 2025, at 08:04, Sjors Provoost <sjors@sprovoost.nl> wrote:
> >
> >> I'm not aware of any compelling argument to hard fork out the existing
> checkpoints
> >
> > Bitcoin Core plans to remove checkpoints entirely by v30 this fall. I
> just started a thread about this.
>
> The thread does not provide or reference any compelling argument (or any
> argument that I can find) for removing the checkpoints.
>
> One reference states that =E2=80=9Cassume valid=E2=80=9D speeds IBD, but =
of course it does
> so by not validating. So this does not provide a comparable offset to the
> increased validation cost, and even if it did does not provide an argumen=
t
> for hard forking them out.
>
> e

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<div dir=3D"ltr">Hi,<div><br></div><div>Replying to parts of all messages t=
hus far.<br><br><div><br></div><div>&gt;The obvious solution to this proble=
m is to not create the problem in the first place.<br><br>Yes, that is a fa=
ir point. Not removing the checkpoints is one way of ensuring the consensus=
 bug cannot be triggered. I&#39;m agnostic about whether having checkpoints=
 is also a reason to forgo consensus checks such as BIP30=C2=A0(or my propo=
sed alternative of checking the coinbase TXID for uniqueness and ensuring n=
o future collision). Even though checkpoints essentially force your node to=
 halt if something were invalid up until that point, I still think there is=
 value in being able to verify that the rules were followed.<br><br></div><=
div><br></div><div>&gt;Solution C could be to remove it, but restore the pr=
evious UTXO</div><div><br></div><div>Yes, as Sjors also pointed out, I do t=
hink it is best to be precise about which of the duplicates you&#39;re keep=
ing. In fact, it&#39;s probably required to ensure the rolling UTXO set has=
h remains consistent.</div><div><br><br></div><div>&gt;In the case of=C2=A0=
<span class=3D"gmail-il">BIP30</span>, one option could be to have a rule t=
hat says: if the 2014 checkpoint is missing, then enforce the BIP54 Consens=
us Cleanup nLockTime rule from genesis. BIP34 can then simply go away.</div=
><div><br></div><div>I&#39;m afraid it&#39;s not that simple. If you wanted=
 to fork off from some arbitrary point prior to the last checkpoint, you&#3=
9;d want to enforce the new consensus rules from that exact point (not from=
 genesis), but that requires shipping the full node software with a hash fo=
r every possible block that could be forked off from. It&#39;s roughly 8MB =
of data so it&#39;s not impossible, and I even had this written up as an al=
ternative solution, but I removed it in favor of the solution I ended up=C2=
=A0describing.</div><div><br><br></div><div>Cheers,</div><div>Ruben</div></=
div></div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote gmail_quote_container"><div dir=3D"=
ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Mon, Apr 28, 2025 at 2:39=E2=80=AFPM Eric Vosk=
uil &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:eric@voskuil.org">eric@voskuil.org</a>&gt; wrote:=
<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8=
ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><br>
&gt; On Apr 28, 2025, at 08:04, Sjors Provoost &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:sjors@=
sprovoost.nl" target=3D"_blank">sjors@sprovoost.nl</a>&gt; wrote:<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt; I&#39;m not aware of any compelling argument to hard fork out the =
existing checkpoints<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; Bitcoin Core plans to remove checkpoints entirely by v30 this fall. I =
just started a thread about this.<br>
<br>
The thread does not provide or reference any compelling argument (or any ar=
gument that I can find) for removing the checkpoints.<br>
<br>
One reference states that =E2=80=9Cassume valid=E2=80=9D speeds IBD, but of=
 course it does so by not validating. So this does not provide a comparable=
 offset to the increased validation cost, and even if it did does not provi=
de an argument for hard forking them out.<br>
<br>
e</blockquote></div>

<p></p>

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