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From: digital vagabond <pointlesscacophany@gmail.com>
Date: Tue, 14 Jun 2022 17:06:22 +0200
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To: Bryan Bishop <kanzure@gmail.com>, 
 Bitcoin Protocol Discussion <bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org>
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Subject: Re: [bitcoin-dev] Why OpenTimestamps does not "linearize" its
	transactions
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If someone wants more linearity and uniqueness guarantees from a timestamp,
that isnt what OTS was designed for. Here is a protocol that was:
https://www.commerceblock.com/mainstay/

On Tue, Jun 14, 2022, 3:56 PM Bryan Bishop via bitcoin-dev <
bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org> wrote:

> On Tue, Jun 14, 2022 at 8:48 AM Undiscussed Horrific Abuse, One Victim of
> Many via bitcoin-dev <bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org> wrote:
>
>> OTS needlessly adds the requirement that the user publicize their .ots
>> files to everybody who will make use of the timestamp.
>
>
> Publication is not a component of the OTS system.
>
> This does not provide the service you describe. It would be trivial to
>> include enough cryptographic information in the original OP_RETURN, so
>> as to obviate the need for publicizing the .ots file.
>>
>
> (Why would it be needless to require everyone to publish OTS files but not
> needless to require everyone to publish via OP_RETURN? In fact, now you
> have blockchain users that don't ever use your OP_RETURN data.)
>
>
>> If I send my .ots file to another party, a 4th party can replace it
>> with their own, because there is no cryptographic pinning ensuring its
>> contents. This changes the timestamp to one later, no longer proving
>> the earliness of the data.
>>
>
> You can't replace a timestamp in the OTS system; you can only make a new
> timestamp. To use the earlier timestamp, you would have to use the earlier
> timestamp. At any time it is allowed to make a new timestamp based on the
> current clock. The use case for OTS is proving document existence as of a
> certain time and that if you had doctored a file then said doctoring was no
> later than the earliest timestamp that can be provided.
>
> I was just talking about this the other day actually...
> https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31640752
>
> - Bryan
> https://twitter.com/kanzure
> _______________________________________________
> bitcoin-dev mailing list
> bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org
> https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev
>

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<div dir=3D"auto">If someone wants more linearity and uniqueness guarantees=
 from a timestamp, that isnt what OTS was designed for. Here is a protocol =
that was:=C2=A0<a href=3D"https://www.commerceblock.com/mainstay/">https://=
www.commerceblock.com/mainstay/</a></div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><di=
v dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Tue, Jun 14, 2022, 3:56 PM Bryan Bish=
op via bitcoin-dev &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.=
org">bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org</a>&gt; wrote:<br></div><blockqu=
ote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc s=
olid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr">On Tue, Jun 14, 20=
22 at 8:48 AM Undiscussed Horrific Abuse, One Victim of Many via bitcoin-de=
v &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org" target=3D"_b=
lank" rel=3D"noreferrer">bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org</a>&gt; wrot=
e:<br></div><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" st=
yle=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padd=
ing-left:1ex">
OTS needlessly adds the requirement that the user publicize their .ots<br>
files to everybody who will make use of the timestamp.</blockquote><div>=C2=
=A0</div><div>Publication is not a component of the OTS system.</div><div><=
br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8e=
x;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
This does not provide the service you describe. It would be trivial to<br>
include enough cryptographic information in the original OP_RETURN, so<br>
as to obviate the need for publicizing the .ots file.<br></blockquote><div>=
<br>(Why would it be needless to require everyone to publish OTS files but =
not needless to require everyone to publish via OP_RETURN? In fact, now you=
 have blockchain users that don&#39;t ever use your OP_RETURN data.)<br>=C2=
=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8e=
x;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">If I send my .ot=
s file to another party, a 4th party can replace it<br>
with their own, because there is no cryptographic pinning ensuring its<br>
contents. This changes the timestamp to one later, no longer proving<br>
the earliness of the data.<br></blockquote><div><br>You can&#39;t replace a=
 timestamp in the OTS system; you can only make a new timestamp. To use the=
 earlier timestamp, you would have to use the earlier timestamp. At any tim=
e it is allowed to make a new timestamp based on the current clock. The use=
 case for OTS is proving document existence as of a certain time and that i=
f you had doctored a file then said doctoring was no later than the earlies=
t timestamp that can be provided.<br><br>I was just talking about this the =
other day actually...<br><a href=3D"https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3D=
31640752" target=3D"_blank" rel=3D"noreferrer">https://news.ycombinator.com=
/item?id=3D31640752</a><br><br></div></div><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr=
">- Bryan<br><a href=3D"https://twitter.com/kanzure" target=3D"_blank" rel=
=3D"noreferrer">https://twitter.com/kanzure</a></div></div></div>
_______________________________________________<br>
bitcoin-dev mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org" target=3D"_blank" =
rel=3D"noreferrer">bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev" =
rel=3D"noreferrer noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://lists.linuxfoundati=
on.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev</a><br>
</blockquote></div>

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