1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
26
27
28
29
30
31
32
33
34
35
36
37
38
39
40
41
42
43
44
45
46
47
48
49
50
51
52
53
54
55
56
57
58
59
60
61
62
63
64
65
66
67
68
69
70
71
72
73
74
75
76
77
78
79
80
81
82
83
84
85
86
87
88
89
90
91
92
93
94
95
96
97
98
99
100
101
102
103
104
105
106
107
108
109
110
111
112
113
114
115
116
117
118
119
120
121
122
123
124
125
126
127
128
129
130
131
132
133
134
135
136
137
138
139
140
141
142
143
144
145
146
147
148
149
150
151
152
|
Return-Path: <earonesty@gmail.com>
Received: from smtp1.osuosl.org (smtp1.osuosl.org [IPv6:2605:bc80:3010::138])
by lists.linuxfoundation.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D399EC002D
for <bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org>;
Mon, 25 Jul 2022 15:04:29 +0000 (UTC)
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1])
by smtp1.osuosl.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9FA8483E44
for <bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org>;
Mon, 25 Jul 2022 15:04:29 +0000 (UTC)
DKIM-Filter: OpenDKIM Filter v2.11.0 smtp1.osuosl.org 9FA8483E44
Authentication-Results: smtp1.osuosl.org;
dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=q32-com.20210112.gappssmtp.com
header.i=@q32-com.20210112.gappssmtp.com header.a=rsa-sha256
header.s=20210112 header.b=lw8TBKE0
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at osuosl.org
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -1.399
X-Spam-Level:
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.399 tagged_above=-999 required=5
tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1,
FREEMAIL_FORGED_FROMDOMAIN=0.25, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001,
HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS=0.249, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001,
RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001]
autolearn=no autolearn_force=no
Received: from smtp1.osuosl.org ([127.0.0.1])
by localhost (smtp1.osuosl.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024)
with ESMTP id 4ItlV1Cu-1RO
for <bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org>;
Mon, 25 Jul 2022 15:04:29 +0000 (UTC)
X-Greylist: whitelisted by SQLgrey-1.8.0
DKIM-Filter: OpenDKIM Filter v2.11.0 smtp1.osuosl.org CE48E83E43
Received: from mail-vs1-xe34.google.com (mail-vs1-xe34.google.com
[IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::e34])
by smtp1.osuosl.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id CE48E83E43
for <bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org>;
Mon, 25 Jul 2022 15:04:28 +0000 (UTC)
Received: by mail-vs1-xe34.google.com with SMTP id 125so10943900vsx.7
for <bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org>;
Mon, 25 Jul 2022 08:04:28 -0700 (PDT)
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed;
d=q32-com.20210112.gappssmtp.com; s=20210112;
h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to
:cc; bh=37wyJdrmEa+zwxy5tZ4pOKQxyKtgKASyOOiPM24Zpdw=;
b=lw8TBKE0KV6L3kKOm8c8pyR4AIj2vnXuARJ62mE9lTJ/tdMWYhF1h4+7ICCduKMqEv
PZbooE4KSElt4As0QOiBMz0TiHQQ1jEaXgq0uuTn9yCt9VelnbBfFHo+p+uPYQ0di1iy
ZUzCk4KqLr0m3ipwfUOzLGg1d6r2cdEZU7aRkQfJLCJB3laOUixqh1VxNPC3YF8tUBAi
WsPAQEgzVGVZ/uuinfCX30Oz86bydDp4tpqqjPr2mPDEVJjnH855XxvfrUZIe94POQTV
VVHOg93kAOqLcumisOru4z/ffoBtu+l7hAfsLqRSeaOFziDK7Sv/sQPu/dVP8/2F7zQ4
kBQA==
X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed;
d=1e100.net; s=20210112;
h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date
:message-id:subject:to:cc;
bh=37wyJdrmEa+zwxy5tZ4pOKQxyKtgKASyOOiPM24Zpdw=;
b=Jrcj+MmQD1n0U8j8mydqjYDPJ4yHJgsVzsytltZSlKY5nHmA/ruCH3U1xu1VOz/6Oj
sWUYyV9nyizosEF2P8eTKQVZMY14jCs9awlo2D0wtuALRrhDV3SWsIux7gABamnhrOBL
oBcvFQieSYUQqguYD03cD9uFyH51dqG/iJ5DW7GgSB/OqU96MweOD5aJwVrxQEKB/0lo
mZhv3Uhu7LqXMiPfOJTDvYKlO5rnu8w7Eko1osiOfHgnDO3R9p0ndF8huE5PbQTwzs1m
pHkwIX2w8PCBPyZHIgRQwn+ds+aPa1tzRKxLZ5fLs2FiwKCYcETlahv5CRd6rYoP+3VI
eiYg==
X-Gm-Message-State: AJIora/mjuV24WnJa3YWEKL3UdWqSnjnsndOzVE6uDEN9pLs7h3kFnjn
GikGSQnLajN3lgjAs8yk/mSA5/RJ4zxb+9lUOG8QPGo=
X-Google-Smtp-Source: AGRyM1tyKcSODcbobjrO06D+vW1grHajsKixG44aSzMYtALnULop5QnLzipM3CEGqplpGR78jSXKYl+92NVcKGcOkp4=
X-Received: by 2002:a05:6102:30a8:b0:358:397b:2390 with SMTP id
y8-20020a05610230a800b00358397b2390mr3543780vsd.57.1658761467492; Mon, 25 Jul
2022 08:04:27 -0700 (PDT)
MIME-Version: 1.0
References: <D50AEC8C-4EEC-4C17-8626-87C651F1AA66@voskuil.org>
<6xuj-ljJ9hvME-TIgWHmfPpad4aJ-1zTYSH1NBuFL_gi-6hJHMayWLEAhcEyw_lqmkR24ee8uMIAH6n4TDguk_5fJ8och99Em3m5y1R6brE=@protonmail.com>
<YssL6VL9y6EwyBjr@petertodd.org> <08a53f48e81f1da06bd688e524ae4ec7@dtrt.org>
<CAJowKgJb99LAQ=KGEcU2a1jJBPGBNh7=zW177NpS-vxvKZyO0A@mail.gmail.com>
In-Reply-To: <CAJowKgJb99LAQ=KGEcU2a1jJBPGBNh7=zW177NpS-vxvKZyO0A@mail.gmail.com>
From: Erik Aronesty <erik@q32.com>
Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2022 11:04:39 -0400
Message-ID: <CAJowKgKCUZwMLMhmp8tdZLZRKDjmjkdfWey+pkSm5-tw66ZFYg@mail.gmail.com>
To: "David A. Harding" <dave@dtrt.org>,
Bitcoin Protocol Discussion <bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org>
Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000097e8a05e4a28049"
X-Mailman-Approved-At: Tue, 26 Jul 2022 08:20:21 +0000
Subject: Re: [bitcoin-dev] Surprisingly, Tail Emission Is Not Inflationary
X-BeenThere: bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15
Precedence: list
List-Id: Bitcoin Protocol Discussion <bitcoin-dev.lists.linuxfoundation.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/options/bitcoin-dev>,
<mailto:bitcoin-dev-request@lists.linuxfoundation.org?subject=unsubscribe>
List-Archive: <http://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/bitcoin-dev/>
List-Post: <mailto:bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org>
List-Help: <mailto:bitcoin-dev-request@lists.linuxfoundation.org?subject=help>
List-Subscribe: <https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev>,
<mailto:bitcoin-dev-request@lists.linuxfoundation.org?subject=subscribe>
X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2022 15:04:29 -0000
--000000000000097e8a05e4a28049
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
even with zero block reward and minimal fees, large holders who perform
zero transactions will still mine in order to preserve the value of the
network
this is not "mining your own tx", it is unrelated
this is "mining at a small loss to preserve your stake"
not only don't we need issuance or fees, but also the censorship resistance
is not meaningfully improved with issuance
On Mon, Jul 18, 2022 at 3:14 PM Erik Aronesty <erik@q32.com> wrote:
>
>> subsidy to directly tie miner revenue to the total value of Bitcoin
>> makes it not exactly how we want to incentivise a service that keeps
>>
>>
> again, this is meaningless. if the fees aren't enough to keep bitcoin
> secure for large transactions, then large holders are incentivised to mine
>
> that's it.
>
> it's not complicated
>
--000000000000097e8a05e4a28049
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
<div dir=3D"ltr"><div>even with zero block reward and minimal fees, large h=
olders who perform zero transactions will still mine in order to preserve t=
he value of the network</div><div><br></div><div>this is not "mining y=
our own tx", it is unrelated</div><div><br></div><div>this is "mi=
ning at a small loss to preserve your stake"</div><div><br></div><div>=
not only don't we need issuance or fees, but also the censorship resist=
ance is not meaningfully improved with issuance=C2=A0</div><div><br></div><=
/div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">O=
n Mon, Jul 18, 2022 at 3:14 PM Erik Aronesty <<a href=3D"mailto:erik@q32=
.com">erik@q32.com</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote=
" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);=
padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><blockquote c=
lass=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px soli=
d rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><br>subsidy to directly tie miner reve=
nue to the total value of Bitcoin <br>
makes it not exactly how we want to incentivise a service that keeps <br><b=
r></blockquote><div><br></div><div>again, this is meaningless.=C2=A0 =C2=A0=
if the fees aren't enough=C2=A0to keep=C2=A0 bitcoin secure for large t=
ransactions, then large holders are incentivised to mine</div><div><br></di=
v><div>that's it.</div><div><br></div><div>it's not complicated</di=
v></div></div>
</blockquote></div>
--000000000000097e8a05e4a28049--
|