1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
26
27
28
29
30
31
32
33
34
35
36
37
38
39
40
41
42
43
44
45
46
47
48
49
50
51
52
53
54
55
56
57
58
59
60
61
62
63
64
65
66
67
68
69
70
71
72
73
74
75
76
77
78
79
80
81
82
83
84
85
86
87
88
89
90
91
92
93
94
95
96
97
98
99
100
101
102
103
104
105
106
107
108
109
110
111
112
113
114
115
116
117
118
119
120
121
122
123
124
125
126
127
128
129
130
131
132
133
134
135
136
137
138
139
140
141
142
143
144
145
146
147
148
149
150
151
152
153
154
155
156
157
158
159
160
161
162
163
164
165
166
167
168
169
170
171
172
173
174
175
176
177
178
179
180
181
182
183
184
185
186
187
188
189
190
191
192
193
194
195
196
197
198
199
200
201
202
203
204
205
206
207
208
209
210
211
212
213
214
215
216
217
218
219
220
221
222
223
224
225
226
227
228
229
230
231
232
233
234
235
236
237
238
239
240
241
242
243
244
245
246
247
248
249
250
251
252
253
254
255
256
257
258
259
260
261
262
263
264
265
266
267
268
269
270
271
272
273
274
275
276
277
278
279
280
281
282
283
284
285
286
287
288
289
290
291
292
293
294
295
296
297
298
299
300
301
302
303
304
305
306
307
308
309
310
311
312
313
314
315
316
317
318
319
320
321
322
323
324
325
326
327
328
329
330
331
332
333
334
335
336
337
338
339
340
341
342
343
344
345
346
347
348
349
350
351
352
353
354
355
356
357
358
359
360
361
362
363
364
365
366
367
368
369
370
371
372
373
374
375
376
377
378
379
380
381
382
383
384
385
386
387
388
389
390
391
392
393
394
395
396
397
398
399
400
401
402
403
404
405
406
407
408
409
410
411
412
413
414
415
416
417
418
419
420
421
422
423
424
425
426
427
428
429
430
431
432
433
434
435
436
437
438
439
440
441
442
443
444
445
446
447
448
449
450
451
452
453
454
455
456
457
458
459
460
461
462
463
464
465
466
467
468
469
470
471
472
473
474
475
476
477
478
479
480
481
482
483
484
485
486
487
488
489
490
491
492
493
494
495
496
497
498
499
500
501
502
503
504
505
506
507
508
509
510
511
512
513
514
515
516
517
518
519
520
521
522
523
524
525
526
527
528
529
530
531
532
533
534
535
536
537
538
539
540
541
542
543
544
545
546
547
548
549
550
551
552
553
554
555
556
557
558
559
560
561
562
563
564
565
566
567
568
569
570
571
572
573
574
575
576
577
578
579
580
581
582
583
584
585
586
587
588
589
590
591
592
593
594
595
596
597
598
599
600
601
602
603
604
605
606
607
608
609
610
611
612
613
614
615
616
617
618
619
620
621
622
623
624
625
626
627
628
629
630
631
632
633
634
635
636
637
638
639
640
641
642
643
644
645
646
647
648
649
650
651
652
653
654
655
656
657
658
659
660
661
662
663
664
665
666
667
668
669
670
671
672
673
674
675
676
677
678
679
680
681
682
683
684
685
686
687
688
|
Received: from sog-mx-4.v43.ch3.sourceforge.com ([172.29.43.194]
helo=mx.sourceforge.net)
by sfs-ml-2.v29.ch3.sourceforge.com with esmtp (Exim 4.76)
(envelope-from <ryacko@gmail.com>) id 1W8MLK-0004zQ-5l
for bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net;
Wed, 29 Jan 2014 04:01:38 +0000
Received-SPF: pass (sog-mx-4.v43.ch3.sourceforge.com: domain of gmail.com
designates 74.125.82.52 as permitted sender)
client-ip=74.125.82.52; envelope-from=ryacko@gmail.com;
helo=mail-wg0-f52.google.com;
Received: from mail-wg0-f52.google.com ([74.125.82.52])
by sog-mx-4.v43.ch3.sourceforge.com with esmtps (TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128)
(Exim 4.76) id 1W8MLH-0004F4-CM
for bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net;
Wed, 29 Jan 2014 04:01:38 +0000
Received: by mail-wg0-f52.google.com with SMTP id b13so2472161wgh.7
for <bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net>;
Tue, 28 Jan 2014 20:01:29 -0800 (PST)
MIME-Version: 1.0
X-Received: by 10.180.75.202 with SMTP id e10mr17680349wiw.50.1390968089154;
Tue, 28 Jan 2014 20:01:29 -0800 (PST)
Sender: ryacko@gmail.com
Received: by 10.194.44.229 with HTTP; Tue, 28 Jan 2014 20:01:28 -0800 (PST)
In-Reply-To: <mailman.433139.1390965227.4583.bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net>
References: <mailman.433139.1390965227.4583.bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net>
Date: Tue, 28 Jan 2014 20:01:28 -0800
X-Google-Sender-Auth: neBQ8uQ7xHEksf_eh8S2cGTySS8
Message-ID: <CAO7N=i3hF1aBYxbKOj=fCMu-HwPU2Z9+y9yKs15zucLY+jHcZA@mail.gmail.com>
From: Ryan Carboni <ryan.jc.pc@gmail.com>
To: bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net
Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=f46d04389569d91d1904f113fed6
X-Spam-Score: -0.6 (/)
X-Spam-Report: Spam Filtering performed by mx.sourceforge.net.
See http://spamassassin.org/tag/ for more details.
-1.5 SPF_CHECK_PASS SPF reports sender host as permitted sender for
sender-domain
0.0 FREEMAIL_FROM Sender email is commonly abused enduser mail provider
(ryacko[at]gmail.com)
-0.0 SPF_PASS SPF: sender matches SPF record
1.0 HTML_MESSAGE BODY: HTML included in message
-0.1 DKIM_VALID_AU Message has a valid DKIM or DK signature from
author's domain
0.1 DKIM_SIGNED Message has a DKIM or DK signature,
not necessarily valid
-0.1 DKIM_VALID Message has at least one valid DKIM or DK signature
X-Headers-End: 1W8MLH-0004F4-CM
Subject: Re: [Bitcoin-development] Bitcoin-development Digest, Vol 32,
Issue 57
X-BeenThere: bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9
Precedence: list
List-Id: <bitcoin-development.lists.sourceforge.net>
List-Unsubscribe: <https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development>,
<mailto:bitcoin-development-request@lists.sourceforge.net?subject=unsubscribe>
List-Archive: <http://sourceforge.net/mailarchive/forum.php?forum_name=bitcoin-development>
List-Post: <mailto:bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net>
List-Help: <mailto:bitcoin-development-request@lists.sourceforge.net?subject=help>
List-Subscribe: <https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development>,
<mailto:bitcoin-development-request@lists.sourceforge.net?subject=subscribe>
X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 29 Jan 2014 04:01:38 -0000
--f46d04389569d91d1904f113fed6
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
This will easily create too much data in the block chain.
I think it's probably better to trust online wallets to handle complex
financial transactions such a debits or credits.
If Bitcoin achieves Visa-levels of popularity, that would mean one megabyte
of transactions per second (even assuming script isn't used), or ~30
terabytes per year. After a decade the Bitcoin blockchain can only be
stored by Amazon or Google or the Web Archive, even assuming Kryder's Law
continues.
If the Bitcoin blockchain instead becomes cheque clearinghouse style
transaction system, many problems involving blockchain growth become
negligible.
Sure, this is supposed to be a trustless system, but there's a reason why
everyone relies on trust in the real world.
On Tue, Jan 28, 2014 at 7:13 PM, <
bitcoin-development-request@lists.sourceforge.net> wrote:
> Send Bitcoin-development mailing list submissions to
> bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net
>
> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development
> or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
> bitcoin-development-request@lists.sourceforge.net
>
> You can reach the person managing the list at
> bitcoin-development-owner@lists.sourceforge.net
>
> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
> than "Re: Contents of Bitcoin-development digest..."
>
>
> Today's Topics:
>
> 1. Re: BIP70: PaymentACK semantics (Peter Todd)
> 2. Re: Extension for BIP-0070 to support recurring payments
> (Stephane Brossier)
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Tue, 28 Jan 2014 16:12:18 -0500
> From: Peter Todd <pete@petertodd.org>
> Subject: Re: [Bitcoin-development] BIP70: PaymentACK semantics
> To: Mike Hearn <mike@plan99.net>
> Cc: Andreas Schildbach <andreas@schildbach.de>, Bitcoin Dev
> <bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net>
> Message-ID: <20140128211218.GE22059@savin>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>
> On Tue, Jan 28, 2014 at 06:33:28PM +0100, Mike Hearn wrote:
> > In practice this should only be an issue if a payment is submitted and
> > fails, which should be rare. Barring internal server errors and screwups
> on
> > the merchants side, the only reasons for a rejection at submit time would
> > be the imperfect fungibility of bitcoins, e.g. you try and pay with a
> huge
> > dust tx or one that's invalid/too low fee/etc.
> >
> > So I think we have a bit of time to figure this out. But yes - once you
> > broadcast, you probably accept that there might be a more painful path to
> > resolve issues if something goes wrong, I guess. Right now BitPay has a
> > support system where you can file a ticket if you pay the bitcoins and
> they
> > don't recognise it or the tx never confirms or whatever. It's grotty
> manual
> > work but they do it. Not broadcasting unless you "have" to seems like an
> > optimisation that can reduce pain without much additional complexity.
>
> That's the reason you use a model where things happen atomicly: the
> funds either can or can't be transferred, so if the merchant screws up
> due to a server failure at worst the wallet can always send the
> original, signed, payment request and transaction details proving to the
> merchant that they agreed. Since the asked for txouts exist in the
> blockchain they must either refund the money, or ship the goods.
>
> Wallet software can handle that kind of worst-case failure by
> automatically sending the original payment request back to the merchant.
> At worst all customer support has to do is tell the customer "Sorry
> about that; we didn't get your payment. Please start your wallet up and
> hit the 'resend transaction' button in your wallet and we'll clear that
> right up."
>
> Keep in mind that we're probably going to see fraudsters figuring out
> ways to make payment servers fail. This means conversely that a customer
> calling up a merchant and saying "Hey! Something didn work but the
> wallet says I paid!" is going to be treated more suspiciously. By using
> atomic protocols the issue of did or didn't they pay becomes much more
> black and white, and failure resistant. That's exactly what we keep
> saying Bitcoin offers that PayPal doesn't.
>
> --
> 'peter'[:-1]@petertodd.org
> 000000000000000085c725a905444d271c56fdee4e4ec7f27bdb2e777c872925
> -------------- next part --------------
> A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
> Name: not available
> Type: application/pgp-signature
> Size: 685 bytes
> Desc: Digital signature
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 2
> Date: Tue, 28 Jan 2014 18:47:20 -0800
> From: Stephane Brossier <stephane@kill-bill.org>
> Subject: Re: [Bitcoin-development] Extension for BIP-0070 to support
> recurring payments
> To: "bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net"
> <bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net>
> Cc: Pierre-Alexandre Meyer <pierre@kill-bill.org>, PikaPay
> <hello@PikaPay.com>
> Message-ID: <D6BCC0C4-EF22-4DE8-868E-825D19C387E3@kill-bill.org>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252"
>
> >From what I have seen so far, there seems to be an agreement that this is
> a nice feature to add. We are pretty new to that community and so we don't
> know exactly what the process is, and in particular how we reach consensus
> via email. I am certainly open to follow 'the way' if there is one, but one
> solution would be to follow Mike's suggestion on providing a (prototype)
> implementation first and then defining/refining the BIP. Odinn also
> suggested a possible retribution for our time through crowd-sourcing which
> I am interested to pursue if that makes sense.
>
>
> We have quite some experience on the subscription side of things and while
> we are growing our knowledge on the Bitcoin technology (and ecosystem at
> large) we would benefit from:
> * some feedbacks on the high level proposal
> * additional requirements we might have missed
>
> So, below is a high level description of what we have in mind. If this
> sounds reasonable, we could start working on an implementation.
>
>
>
> I. Abstract
> ---------------
>
> This describes a protocol to enable recurring payments in bitcoins and can
> be seen as an extension of BIP-0070. The main goal here is to have the
> customer subscribe to a service of some kind (that is, agreeing on the
> terms of that subscription contract), and then have the wallet make
> recurring payments without any intervention from the customer as long as
> the payments match what the customer agreed on paying.
>
> An example of such service would be an online streaming website, to which
> a user pays a fixed recurring monthly fee to access videos (a.k.a.
> resources). Note that there is also usage based billing: for example, the
> user may need to purchase additional access for premium videos (overage
> charges). This type of billing is more complicated and there are many
> variations to it used in the industry (pre-paid, ?). For the sake of
> discussion, we?ll focus on fixed recurring payments only, but we will keep
> usage in mind to make sure the protocol will be able to support it as well.
>
>
> II. Motivation
> ------------------
>
> Subscription based services have been growing in the past few years and so
> the intent it to make it possible for customers to pay in bitcoins.
>
> Bitcoin?s push model presents new advantages for the customer compared to
> traditional payment methods: the user has control over the subscription
> (for example, there is no need to call the merchant to explicitly cancel
> the credit card payments). It also opens the door to subscription
> management tools in wallets (e.g. Hive apps), which would give user an
> overview of what they are paying each month.
>
>
> III. Flow of Operations
> ----------------------------------------
>
>
> Creation of the subscription:
> - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
>
> 1. The customer clicks 'subscribe' -> A message is sent to the merchant.
> 2. The merchant sends back a message to the wallet with the details of the
> subscription such as the amount to be paid. In reality, there will be more
> information but for the purpose of the prototype implementation this is
> sufficient.
> 3. The wallet prompts the customer for authorization.
> 4. The customer authorizes (or denies) it.
> 5. The wallet sends the confirmation to the merchant.
> 6. The merchant confirms the subscription was created.
>
> Ongoing payments:
> - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
>
> >From that time on and since Bitcoin is a 'push' model, the wallet is
> responsible to poll the merchant for due payments associated with that
> subscription. Note that the merchant could specify hints to the wallet on
> when to poll (specific dates) or not during the registration of the
> subscription.
>
> Note that we can't simply have the wallet push X bitcoins every month: the
> user account on the merchant side may have gotten credits, invoice
> adjustments, etc. since the last invoice, so the amount to pay for a given
> billing period may be lower than the regular amount. It could even be zero
> if the user decides to make a one-time payment to the merchant directly
> using a different wallet. Hence, the wallet needs to get the latest invoice
> balance to make sure how much it should pay. This also opens the door for
> the support of overage charges.
>
>
> Quick note on the implementation on the merchant side: an entitlement
> system is a piece of logic on the merchant side which grants the user
> access to certain resources depending on the account status (unpaid
> invoices, etc.). This goes often hand in hand with a dunning system, which
> progressively restricts access as the user's account is more and more
> overdue. Since wallets can be offline for an extended period of time,
> payments may be missed and lead to an overdue state (e.g. extra fees,
> service degraded). It is the responsibility of the customer to ensure the
> wallet is up often enough for payments to happen.
>
>
> In that recurring phase where the wallet polls the merchant, the wallet is
> responsible to check that payments match the subscription contract; that
> is, the amount, frequency of payments, ? match what the customer agreed on.
> If so, the payment is made without asking for explicit approval from
> customer, and the flow is similar to BIP-0070: The message is sent to the
> merchant, and in parallel, a transaction is sent to the btcnet. The
> merchant sends an ACK to the wallet and of course checks the states of the
> transactions on the btcnet to mark that payment as successful.
>
> Subscription change (optional):
> - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
>
> Optionally we could implement a change in the ongoing subscription to
> address the upgrade/downgrade scenarios. Of course, we could also simply
> support a cancellation followed by a creation of a new subscription, but
> having that as a one atomic message is probably better. The steps are very
> similar to the initial registration.
>
> 1. The customer clicks 'upgrade', 'downgrade', ? -> A msg is sent to the
> merchant.
> 2. The merchant sends back a msg to the wallet with the detail of the NEW
> subscription.
> 3. The wallet prompts the customer for authorization.
> 4. The customer authorizes (or denies) it.
> 5. The wallet sends the confirmation to the merchant.
> 6. The merchant confirms the change in the subscription.
>
> Cancellation of the subscription:
> - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
>
> The cancellation is initiated from the customer:
>
> 1. The customer clicks 'cancel' -> The wallet is informed that it should
> not accept any new payment associated to that subscription.
> 2. The wallet sends a message to the merchant to inform about the
> cancellation.
> 3. The merchant confirms the subscription was cancelled.
>
>
> -------------- next part --------------
> An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
>
> ------------------------------
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> WatchGuard Dimension instantly turns raw network data into actionable
> security intelligence. It gives you real-time visual feedback on key
> security issues and trends. Skip the complicated setup - simply import
> a virtual appliance and go from zero to informed in seconds.
>
> http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=123612991&iu=/4140/ostg.clktrk
>
> ------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
> Bitcoin-development mailing list
> Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development
>
>
> End of Bitcoin-development Digest, Vol 32, Issue 57
> ***************************************************
>
--f46d04389569d91d1904f113fed6
Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
<div dir=3D"ltr">This will easily create too much data in the block chain.<=
div>I think it's probably better to trust online wallets to handle comp=
lex financial transactions such a debits or credits.</div><div>If Bitcoin a=
chieves Visa-levels of popularity, that would mean one megabyte of transact=
ions per second (even assuming script isn't used), or ~30 terabytes per=
year. After a decade the Bitcoin blockchain can only be stored by Amazon o=
r Google or the Web Archive, even assuming Kryder's Law continues.</div=
>
<div>If the Bitcoin blockchain instead becomes cheque clearinghouse style t=
ransaction system, many problems involving blockchain growth become negligi=
ble.</div><div>Sure, this is supposed to be a trustless system, but there&#=
39;s a reason why everyone relies on trust in the real world.=A0</div>
</div><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Tue,=
Jan 28, 2014 at 7:13 PM, <span dir=3D"ltr"><<a href=3D"mailto:bitcoin-=
development-request@lists.sourceforge.net" target=3D"_blank">bitcoin-develo=
pment-request@lists.sourceforge.net</a>></span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1p=
x #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">Send Bitcoin-development mailing list submis=
sions to<br>
=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 <a href=3D"mailto:bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net=
">bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net</a><br>
<br>
To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit<br>
=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 <a href=3D"https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bit=
coin-development" target=3D"_blank">https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/lis=
tinfo/bitcoin-development</a><br>
or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to<br>
=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 <a href=3D"mailto:bitcoin-development-request@lists.sourcef=
orge.net">bitcoin-development-request@lists.sourceforge.net</a><br>
<br>
You can reach the person managing the list at<br>
=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 <a href=3D"mailto:bitcoin-development-owner@lists.sourcefor=
ge.net">bitcoin-development-owner@lists.sourceforge.net</a><br>
<br>
When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific<br>
than "Re: Contents of Bitcoin-development digest..."<br>
<br>
<br>
Today's Topics:<br>
<br>
=A0 =A01. Re: BIP70: PaymentACK semantics (Peter Todd)<br>
=A0 =A02. Re: Extension for BIP-0070 to support =A0 =A0 recurring payments<=
br>
=A0 =A0 =A0 (Stephane Brossier)<br>
<br>
<br>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<br>
<br>
Message: 1<br>
Date: Tue, 28 Jan 2014 16:12:18 -0500<br>
From: Peter Todd <<a href=3D"mailto:pete@petertodd.org">pete@petertodd.o=
rg</a>><br>
Subject: Re: [Bitcoin-development] BIP70: PaymentACK semantics<br>
To: Mike Hearn <<a href=3D"mailto:mike@plan99.net">mike@plan99.net</a>&g=
t;<br>
Cc: Andreas Schildbach <<a href=3D"mailto:andreas@schildbach.de">andreas=
@schildbach.de</a>>, Bitcoin Dev<br>
=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 <<a href=3D"mailto:bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge=
.net">bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net</a>><br>
Message-ID: <20140128211218.GE22059@savin><br>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3D"us-ascii"<br>
<br>
On Tue, Jan 28, 2014 at 06:33:28PM +0100, Mike Hearn wrote:<br>
> In practice this should only be an issue if a payment is submitted and=
<br>
> fails, which should be rare. Barring internal server errors and screwu=
ps on<br>
> the merchants side, the only reasons for a rejection at submit time wo=
uld<br>
> be the imperfect fungibility of bitcoins, e.g. you try and pay with a =
huge<br>
> dust tx or one that's invalid/too low fee/etc.<br>
><br>
> So I think we have a bit of time to figure this out. But yes - once yo=
u<br>
> broadcast, you probably accept that there might be a more painful path=
to<br>
> resolve issues if something goes wrong, I guess. Right now BitPay has =
a<br>
> support system where you can file a ticket if you pay the bitcoins and=
they<br>
> don't recognise it or the tx never confirms or whatever. It's =
grotty manual<br>
> work but they do it. Not broadcasting unless you "have" to s=
eems like an<br>
> optimisation that can reduce pain without much additional complexity.<=
br>
<br>
That's the reason you use a model where things happen atomicly: the<br>
funds either can or can't be transferred, so if the merchant screws up<=
br>
due to a server failure at worst the wallet can always send the<br>
original, signed, payment request and transaction details proving to the<br=
>
merchant that they agreed. Since the asked for txouts exist in the<br>
blockchain they must either refund the money, or ship the goods.<br>
<br>
Wallet software can handle that kind of worst-case failure by<br>
automatically sending the original payment request back to the merchant.<br=
>
At worst all customer support has to do is tell the customer "Sorry<br=
>
about that; we didn't get your payment. Please start your wallet up and=
<br>
hit the 'resend transaction' button in your wallet and we'll cl=
ear that<br>
right up."<br>
<br>
Keep in mind that we're probably going to see fraudsters figuring out<b=
r>
ways to make payment servers fail. This means conversely that a customer<br=
>
calling up a merchant and saying "Hey! Something didn work but the<br>
wallet says I paid!" is going to be treated more suspiciously. By usin=
g<br>
atomic protocols the issue of did or didn't they pay becomes much more<=
br>
black and white, and failure resistant. That's exactly what we keep<br>
saying Bitcoin offers that PayPal doesn't.<br>
<br>
--<br>
'peter'[:-1]@<a href=3D"http://petertodd.org" target=3D"_blank">pet=
ertodd.org</a><br>
000000000000000085c725a905444d271c56fdee4e4ec7f27bdb2e777c872925<br>
-------------- next part --------------<br>
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...<br>
Name: not available<br>
Type: application/pgp-signature<br>
Size: 685 bytes<br>
Desc: Digital signature<br>
<br>
------------------------------<br>
<br>
Message: 2<br>
Date: Tue, 28 Jan 2014 18:47:20 -0800<br>
From: Stephane Brossier <<a href=3D"mailto:stephane@kill-bill.org">steph=
ane@kill-bill.org</a>><br>
Subject: Re: [Bitcoin-development] Extension for BIP-0070 to support<br>
=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 recurring payments<br>
To: "<a href=3D"mailto:bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net">bitc=
oin-development@lists.sourceforge.net</a>"<br>
=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 <<a href=3D"mailto:bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge=
.net">bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net</a>><br>
Cc: Pierre-Alexandre Meyer <<a href=3D"mailto:pierre@kill-bill.org">pier=
re@kill-bill.org</a>>, PikaPay<br>
=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 <hello@PikaPay.com><br>
Message-ID: <<a href=3D"mailto:D6BCC0C4-EF22-4DE8-868E-825D19C387E3@kill=
-bill.org">D6BCC0C4-EF22-4DE8-868E-825D19C387E3@kill-bill.org</a>><br>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3D"windows-1252"<br>
<br>
>From what I have seen so far, there seems to be an agreement that this =
is a nice feature to add. We are pretty new to that community and so we don=
't know exactly what the process is, and in particular how we reach con=
sensus via email. I am certainly open to follow 'the way' if there =
is one, but one solution would be to follow Mike's suggestion on provid=
ing a (prototype) implementation first and then defining/refining the BIP. =
Odinn also suggested a possible retribution for our time through crowd-sour=
cing which I am interested to pursue if that makes sense.<br>
<br>
<br>
We have quite some experience on the subscription side of things and while =
we are growing our knowledge on the Bitcoin technology (and ecosystem at la=
rge) we would benefit from:<br>
* some feedbacks on the high level proposal<br>
* additional requirements we might have missed<br>
<br>
So, below is a high level description of what we have in mind. If this soun=
ds reasonable, we could start working on an implementation.<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
I. Abstract<br>
---------------<br>
<br>
This describes a protocol to enable recurring payments in bitcoins and can =
be seen as an extension of BIP-0070. The main goal here is to have the cust=
omer subscribe to a service of some kind (that is, agreeing on the terms of=
that subscription contract), and then have the wallet make recurring payme=
nts without any intervention from the customer as long as the payments matc=
h what the customer agreed on paying.<br>
<br>
An example of such service would be an online streaming website, to which a=
user pays a fixed recurring monthly fee to access videos (a.k.a. resources=
). Note that there is also usage based billing: for example, the user may n=
eed to purchase additional access for premium videos (overage charges). Thi=
s type of billing is more complicated and there are many variations to it u=
sed in the industry (pre-paid, ?). For the sake of discussion, we?ll focus =
on fixed recurring payments only, but we will keep usage in mind to make su=
re the protocol will be able to support it as well.<br>
<br>
<br>
II. Motivation<br>
------------------<br>
<br>
Subscription based services have been growing in the past few years and so =
the intent it to make it possible for customers to pay in bitcoins.<br>
<br>
Bitcoin?s push model presents new advantages for the customer compared to t=
raditional payment methods: the user has control over the subscription (for=
example, there is no need to call the merchant to explicitly cancel the cr=
edit card payments). It also opens the door to subscription management tool=
s in wallets (e.g. Hive apps), which would give user an overview of what th=
ey are paying each month.<br>
<br>
<br>
III. Flow of Operations<br>
----------------------------------------<br>
<br>
<br>
Creation of the subscription:<br>
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -<br>
<br>
1. The customer clicks 'subscribe' -> A message is sent to the m=
erchant.<br>
2. The merchant sends back a message to the wallet with the details of the =
subscription such as the amount to be paid. In reality, there will be more =
information but for the purpose of the prototype implementation this is suf=
ficient.<br>
3. The wallet prompts the customer for authorization.<br>
4. The customer authorizes (or denies) it.<br>
5. The wallet sends the confirmation to the merchant.<br>
6. The merchant confirms the subscription was created.<br>
<br>
Ongoing payments:<br>
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -<br>
<br>
>From that time on and since Bitcoin is a 'push' model, the wall=
et is responsible to poll the merchant for due payments associated with tha=
t subscription. Note that the merchant could specify hints to the wallet on=
when to poll (specific dates) or not during the registration of the subscr=
iption.<br>
<br>
Note that we can't simply have the wallet push X bitcoins every month: =
the user account on the merchant side may have gotten credits, invoice adju=
stments, etc. since the last invoice, so the amount to pay for a given bill=
ing period may be lower than the regular amount. It could even be zero if t=
he user decides to make a one-time payment to the merchant directly using a=
different wallet. Hence, the wallet needs to get the latest invoice balanc=
e to make sure how much it should pay. This also opens the door for the sup=
port of overage charges.<br>
<br>
<br>
Quick note on the implementation on the merchant side: an entitlement syste=
m is a piece of logic on the merchant side which grants the user access to =
certain resources depending on the account status (unpaid invoices, etc.). =
This goes often hand in hand with a dunning system, which progressively res=
tricts access as the user's account is more and more overdue. Since wal=
lets can be offline for an extended period of time, payments may be missed =
and lead to an overdue state (e.g. extra fees, service degraded). It is the=
responsibility of the customer to ensure the wallet is up often enough for=
payments to happen.<br>
<br>
<br>
In that recurring phase where the wallet polls the merchant, the wallet is =
responsible to check that payments match the subscription contract; that is=
, the amount, frequency of payments, ? match what the customer agreed on. I=
f so, the payment is made without asking for explicit approval from custome=
r, and the flow is similar to BIP-0070: The message is sent to the merchant=
, and in parallel, a transaction is sent to the btcnet. The merchant sends =
an ACK to the wallet and of course checks the states of the transactions on=
the btcnet to mark that payment as successful.<br>
<br>
Subscription change (optional):<br>
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -<br>
<br>
Optionally we could implement a change in the ongoing subscription to addre=
ss the upgrade/downgrade scenarios. Of course, we could also simply support=
a cancellation followed by a creation of a new subscription, but having th=
at as a one atomic message is probably better. The steps are very similar t=
o the initial registration.<br>
<br>
1. The customer clicks 'upgrade', 'downgrade', ? -> A ms=
g is sent to the merchant.<br>
2. The merchant sends back a msg to the wallet with the detail of the NEW s=
ubscription.<br>
3. The wallet prompts the customer for authorization.<br>
4. The customer authorizes (or denies) it.<br>
5. The wallet sends the confirmation to the merchant.<br>
6. The merchant confirms the change in the subscription.<br>
<br>
Cancellation of the subscription:<br>
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -<br>
<br>
The cancellation is initiated from the customer:<br>
<br>
1. The customer clicks 'cancel' -> The wallet is informed that i=
t =A0should not accept any new payment associated to that subscription.<br>
2. The wallet sends a message to the merchant to inform about the cancellat=
ion.<br>
3. The merchant confirms the subscription was cancelled.<br>
<br>
<br>
-------------- next part --------------<br>
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...<br>
<br>
------------------------------<br>
<br>
---------------------------------------------------------------------------=
---<br>
WatchGuard Dimension instantly turns raw network data into actionable<br>
security intelligence. It gives you real-time visual feedback on key<br>
security issues and trends. =A0Skip the complicated setup - simply import<b=
r>
a virtual appliance and go from zero to informed in seconds.<br>
<a href=3D"http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=3D123612991&iu=
=3D/4140/ostg.clktrk" target=3D"_blank">http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gam=
pad/clk?id=3D123612991&iu=3D/4140/ostg.clktrk</a><br>
<br>
------------------------------<br>
<br>
_______________________________________________<br>
Bitcoin-development mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net">Bitcoin-develo=
pment@lists.sourceforge.net</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development=
" target=3D"_blank">https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-de=
velopment</a><br>
<br>
<br>
End of Bitcoin-development Digest, Vol 32, Issue 57<br>
***************************************************<br>
</blockquote></div><br></div>
--f46d04389569d91d1904f113fed6--
|