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Date: Wed, 1 Jan 2025 16:43:46 -0800 (PST)
From: Ian Quantum <ianquantum2027@gmail.com>
To: Bitcoin Development Mailing List <bitcoindev@googlegroups.com>
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Subject: Re: [bitcoindev] Trivial QC signatures with clean upgrade path
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FALCON failed the NIST vetting. Since 2022 they have said they will fix it=
=20
next year. Same answer in 2024 when they formalized CRYSTALS-Dilithium,=20
CRYSTALS-KYBER and SPHINCS+. At the end they again say, " NIST is also=20
developing a FIPS that specifies a digital signature algorithm derived from=
=20
FALCON as an additional alternative to these standards."=20
https://csrc.nist.gov/News/2024/postquantum-cryptography-fips-approved

If it takes 1.5-3 years to get the entire ecosystem of software updated,=20
tested, implemented and then allow users to migrate to quantum safety, then=
=20
Bitcoin code is future proofed. It will still require months (if BTC blocks=
=20
normal transactions) to years (as a supported address type but not=20
required) in order to migrate the wallets to safety. The longer the quantum=
=20
resistant upgrade is delayed, the harsher the migration will need to=20
become.=20

Alice and Bob recently announced a new algorithm that breaks ECC-256 in 9=
=20
hours with 127k qubits.=20
https://alice-bob.com/blog/computing-256-bit-elliptic-curve-logarithm-in-9-=
hours-with-126133-cat-qubits/ The=20
algorithms will continue to improve and the costs will continue to go down.=
=20
While some people are very confident what the quantum hardware will look=20
like in 3 years, can they be so confident about the algorithms? We have=20
switched from supercomputer to network node method of growing quantum=20
calculations. Parallel instead of Serial. Fault tolerant algorithms that=20
prefetch results. Can we really be as confident about the algorithms as=20
people seem to be about the hardware not being ready? Most people in=20
quantum computing aren't aware of how much their competition has=20
progressed, how can devs who don't read 10 or 50 new quantum computing=20
papers per week be more confident than the people who do?

On Wednesday, January 1, 2025 at 1:25:24=E2=80=AFPM UTC+1 David A. Harding =
wrote:

> On 2024-12-16 12:20, Tadge Dryja wrote:
> > An on-chain proof of quantum computer (PoQC I guess :) ) would be a
> > way to reduce the damage of activation forks. One way to build it:
> > Create a NUMS point pubkey - something like described in BIP341. Send
> > some coins to that address, then watch if it gets spent. [...]
> > Nodes can then have code which
> > watches for such a proof and changes consensus rules based on it.
>
> I think this could be even more useful if combined with a previous idea=
=20
> far creating a NUMS[1][3] (or trust minimized[2]) pubkey compatible with=
=20
> Bitcoin but with a security strength less than 128 bits. That way=20
> someone might claim the bounty of the key with (say) 96 bits security=20
> potentially months or years before QC advances made regular keys=20
> insecure and tempted operators of QCs into stealing from regular user=20
> addresses.
>
> -Dave
>
> [1]=20
>
> https://gnusha.org/pi/bitcoindev/CAH5Bsr20n2T7KRTYqycSUx0i...@mail.gmail.=
com/=20
> <https://gnusha.org/pi/bitcoindev/CAH5Bsr20n2T7KRTYqycSUx0iEuEApC8NGtPCfN=
8rYhRyHLE4gA@mail.gmail.com/>
> [2]=20
>
> https://gnusha.org/pi/bitcoindev/aRiFFJKz5wyHFDi2dXcGbNEHZD2nIwDRk7gaXIte=
-N1BoOEOQ-ySYRnk0P70S5igANSr2iqF2ZKV1dWvipaQHK4fJSv9A61-uH7w4pzxKRE=3D@prot=
onmail.com/
> [3]=20
>
> https://gnusha.org/pi/bitcoindev/CAH5Bsr39kw08ki76aezJ1EM9...@mail.gmail.=
com/=20
> <https://gnusha.org/pi/bitcoindev/CAH5Bsr39kw08ki76aezJ1EM9e7mdLFLUmtKwJJ=
NYcyuMpR_Cuw@mail.gmail.com/>
>

--=20
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "=
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To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e=
mail to bitcoindev+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
To view this discussion visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/bitcoindev/=
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<span style=3D"color: rgb(34, 34, 34); font-family: Arial, Helvetica, sans-=
serif; font-size: small;">FALCON failed the NIST vetting. Since 2022 they h=
ave said they will fix it next year. Same answer in 2024 when they formaliz=
ed CRYSTALS-Dilithium, CRYSTALS-KYBER=C2=A0and SPHINCS+. At the end they ag=
ain say, "=C2=A0</span><span style=3D"color: rgb(27, 27, 27); font-family: =
&quot;Source Sans Pro&quot;, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 16px;=
">NIST is also developing a FIPS that specifies a digital signature algorit=
hm derived from FALCON as an additional alternative to these standards."=C2=
=A0</span><a href=3D"https://csrc.nist.gov/News/2024/postquantum-cryptograp=
hy-fips-approved" target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color: rgb(17, 85, 204); font-=
family: Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: small;">https://csrc.nist.=
gov/News/2024/postquantum-cryptography-fips-approved</a><div style=3D"color=
: rgb(34, 34, 34); font-family: Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: sm=
all;"><br /></div><div style=3D"color: rgb(34, 34, 34); font-family: Arial,=
 Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: small;">If it takes 1.5-3 years to get t=
he entire ecosystem of software updated, tested, implemented and then allow=
 users to migrate to quantum safety, then Bitcoin code is future proofed. I=
t will still require months (if BTC blocks normal transactions) to years (a=
s a supported address type but not required) in order to migrate the wallet=
s to safety. The longer the quantum resistant upgrade is delayed, the harsh=
er the migration will need to become.=C2=A0</div><div style=3D"color: rgb(3=
4, 34, 34); font-family: Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: small;"><=
br /></div><div style=3D"color: rgb(34, 34, 34); font-family: Arial, Helvet=
ica, sans-serif; font-size: small;">Alice and Bob recently announced a new =
algorithm that breaks ECC-256 in 9 hours with 127k qubits.=C2=A0<a href=3D"=
https://alice-bob.com/blog/computing-256-bit-elliptic-curve-logarithm-in-9-=
hours-with-126133-cat-qubits/" target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color: rgb(17, 85=
, 204);">https://alice-bob.com/blog/computing-256-bit-elliptic-curve-logari=
thm-in-9-hours-with-126133-cat-qubits/</a>=C2=A0The algorithms will continu=
e to improve and the costs will continue to go down. While some people are =
very confident what the quantum hardware will look like in 3 years, can the=
y be so confident about the algorithms? We have switched from supercomputer=
 to network node method of growing quantum calculations. Parallel instead o=
f Serial. Fault tolerant algorithms that prefetch results. Can we really be=
 as confident about the algorithms as people seem to be about the hardware =
not being ready? Most people in quantum computing aren't aware of how much =
their competition has progressed, how can devs who don't read 10 or 50 new =
quantum computing papers per week be more confident than the people who do?=
</div><br /><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"auto" class=3D"gmail_att=
r">On Wednesday, January 1, 2025 at 1:25:24=E2=80=AFPM UTC+1 David A. Hardi=
ng wrote:<br/></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin: 0 0 =
0 0.8ex; border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); padding-left: 1ex;">On =
2024-12-16 12:20, Tadge Dryja wrote:
<br>&gt; An on-chain proof of quantum computer (PoQC I guess :) ) would be =
a
<br>&gt; way to reduce the damage of activation forks.  One way to build it=
:
<br>&gt; Create a NUMS point pubkey - something like described in BIP341.  =
Send
<br>&gt; some coins to that address, then watch if it gets spent. [...]
<br>&gt; Nodes can then have code which
<br>&gt; watches for such a proof and changes consensus rules based on it.
<br>
<br>I think this could be even more useful if combined with a previous idea=
=20
<br>far creating a NUMS[1][3] (or trust minimized[2]) pubkey compatible wit=
h=20
<br>Bitcoin but with a security strength less than 128 bits.  That way=20
<br>someone might claim the bounty of the key with (say) 96 bits security=
=20
<br>potentially months or years before QC advances made regular keys=20
<br>insecure and tempted operators of QCs into stealing from regular user=
=20
<br>addresses.
<br>
<br>-Dave
<br>
<br>[1]=20
<br><a href=3D"https://gnusha.org/pi/bitcoindev/CAH5Bsr20n2T7KRTYqycSUx0iEu=
EApC8NGtPCfN8rYhRyHLE4gA@mail.gmail.com/" target=3D"_blank" rel=3D"nofollow=
" data-saferedirecturl=3D"https://www.google.com/url?hl=3Den&amp;q=3Dhttps:=
//gnusha.org/pi/bitcoindev/CAH5Bsr20n2T7KRTYqycSUx0iEuEApC8NGtPCfN8rYhRyHLE=
4gA@mail.gmail.com/&amp;source=3Dgmail&amp;ust=3D1735865014280000&amp;usg=
=3DAOvVaw3lUTUkdbNGVzSzH6Ava-er">https://gnusha.org/pi/bitcoindev/CAH5Bsr20=
n2T7KRTYqycSUx0i...@mail.gmail.com/</a>
<br>[2]=20
<br><a href=3D"https://gnusha.org/pi/bitcoindev/aRiFFJKz5wyHFDi2dXcGbNEHZD2=
nIwDRk7gaXIte-N1BoOEOQ-ySYRnk0P70S5igANSr2iqF2ZKV1dWvipaQHK4fJSv9A61-uH7w4p=
zxKRE=3D@protonmail.com/" target=3D"_blank" rel=3D"nofollow" data-saferedir=
ecturl=3D"https://www.google.com/url?hl=3Den&amp;q=3Dhttps://gnusha.org/pi/=
bitcoindev/aRiFFJKz5wyHFDi2dXcGbNEHZD2nIwDRk7gaXIte-N1BoOEOQ-ySYRnk0P70S5ig=
ANSr2iqF2ZKV1dWvipaQHK4fJSv9A61-uH7w4pzxKRE%3D@protonmail.com/&amp;source=
=3Dgmail&amp;ust=3D1735865014280000&amp;usg=3DAOvVaw0TlZ-yp4dmEtVZbnfdRjoZ"=
>https://gnusha.org/pi/bitcoindev/aRiFFJKz5wyHFDi2dXcGbNEHZD2nIwDRk7gaXIte-=
N1BoOEOQ-ySYRnk0P70S5igANSr2iqF2ZKV1dWvipaQHK4fJSv9A61-uH7w4pzxKRE=3D@proto=
nmail.com/</a>
<br>[3]=20
<br><a href=3D"https://gnusha.org/pi/bitcoindev/CAH5Bsr39kw08ki76aezJ1EM9e7=
mdLFLUmtKwJJNYcyuMpR_Cuw@mail.gmail.com/" target=3D"_blank" rel=3D"nofollow=
" data-saferedirecturl=3D"https://www.google.com/url?hl=3Den&amp;q=3Dhttps:=
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Cuw@mail.gmail.com/&amp;source=3Dgmail&amp;ust=3D1735865014280000&amp;usg=
=3DAOvVaw154MNsjPCe2TFgMIoa5aGV">https://gnusha.org/pi/bitcoindev/CAH5Bsr39=
kw08ki76aezJ1EM9...@mail.gmail.com/</a>
<br></blockquote></div>

<p></p>

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