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From: Bob Burnett <bob.burnett@barefootmining.com>
To: PandaCute <pandacute12345678@gmail.com>, Bitcoin Development Mailing List
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Subject: Re: [bitcoindev] Re: Relax OP_RETURN standardness restrictions
Thread-Topic: [bitcoindev] Re: Relax OP_RETURN standardness restrictions
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Date: Fri, 2 May 2025 13:58:44 +0000
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This is my first response/comment on this mailing list.  I think there are =
several issues that have risen to the surface here including this one on a =
broken communication link (well written message btw).


  1.  Those outside of the dev community are perplexed by the process and f=
eeling discounted, unheard, and/or rejected.  Most of the issues/PRs/BIPs t=
hat the dev community deals with are beyond the ability of the general popu=
lation to understand, but occasionally there are ones that they grasp (at l=
east somewhat) and for which they have opinion.  I=E2=80=99ve certainly lea=
rned that when someone has an opinion it is really important to let them ex=
press it, otherwise, the pressure inside them builds and they erupt like a =
volcano.  The Bitcoin ecosystem and its members are radically different tod=
ay than 5-10 years ago =E2=80=93 it is bigger, wider, and has broader inter=
ests now - it appears that process and communication mechanisms currently u=
sed by Core are not capable of reaching the community properly anymore. Not=
e that communication means two-way as well.

When someone buys Bitcoin or starts working within the ecosystem, there is =
no membership guide, owner=E2=80=99s manual, or employee on-boarding proces=
s.  It comes off very badly when someone trying to engage is told that they=
 don=E2=80=99t count or aren=E2=80=99t using proper channels, especially wh=
en they don=E2=80=99t even know where to go learn the rules of engagement. =
 That isn=E2=80=99t necessarily anyone=E2=80=99s fault, but I=E2=80=99ve be=
en involved in Bitcoin since 2017 and even now am still learning new things=
 about the engagement process, and there definitely have been several surpr=
ises and frustrations for me over the past handful of days.



  1.  The ecosystem is much more complex than ever before with people and c=
ompanies developing products and services with assumptions of how Bitcoin w=
ill operate.  Many of these are being done in stealth-mode as well.  Some p=
eople are pouring their heart and soul (and money) into their projects and =
the expectation of a standard is often crucial.  I am one of these folks, b=
eyond what I do in mining (CEO of Barefoot Mining) and as a board member at=
 Ocean, I have been working for two years on a project related to enhancing=
 block space access.  This proposed change in standardness may impact my pr=
oject in a negative manner, and, it is certainly possible others might be i=
n a similar position.  Regardless, changes to standardness are HUGE.  I spe=
nt most of my career within the Personal Computer space and learned the har=
d way that changes to a standards are a dangerous game.   I expand a bit on=
 this in this X  post:: https://x.com/boomer_btc/status/1917687830148526095

  2.  The proposed change also appears to be reduction in flexibility and c=
onfigurability.  In general, this is never a good thing.  IMO, we should be=
 going in the direction of giving people more choices and flexibility (alth=
ough it is fine to make suggestions, set defaults, or provide general guide=
lines.)  How someone configures their node and creates their mempool is aki=
n to free speech within Bitcoin. The same goes for those like me that are m=
iners and create our own block templates =E2=80=93 this is also part of our=
 free speech (and our business).  In the end though, whether you are a user=
 or a miner, the more choices you have, the more freedom of speech you have=
.

Side note: Ultimately, as a miner I am in the business of creating block sp=
ace =E2=80=93 at least that is my view, and contrary to popular belief, min=
ers are not always motivated to simply pick transactions that generate the =
highest block reward in the immediate block, and as time goes by this will =
become even more common and apparent.  I=E2=80=99ve spoken a lot on this re=
cently in public forums, so I won=E2=80=99t dwell on it here.


  1.  Finally, there is the issue of an OP_RETURN change, if it encourages =
more spam, and if we are just caving into an inevitability.  I am against t=
he proposed change and, even if that is true that the spam will ultimately =
find a way, I feel we are acquiescing way too early.  Enough has been said =
on this topic in other forums so I won=E2=80=99t go further.



From: bitcoindev@googlegroups.com <bitcoindev@googlegroups.com> on behalf o=
f PandaCute <pandacute12345678@gmail.com>
Date: Friday, May 2, 2025 at 7:11=E2=80=AFAM
To: Bitcoin Development Mailing List <bitcoindev@googlegroups.com>
Subject: [bitcoindev] Re: Relax OP_RETURN standardness restrictions
You don't often get email from pandacute12345678@gmail.com. Learn why this =
is important<https://aka.ms/LearnAboutSenderIdentification>
I think this debate is missing one important part: a communication link bet=
ween the developers and the users. The developers are speaking with the dev=
elopers, the users are speaking with the users, and no one is really trying=
 to understand where the other side is coming from. It's been a lot of aggr=
essive, unproductive back-and-forth, with both sides accusing each other of=
 bad intentions and completely dismissing each other's points.

This is a technical mailing list aimed at devs, so I'll try to summarize wh=
at I've seen in normal_users_land, and the general feeling out there right =
now. Obviously, I'm not trying to suggest that users *feelings* should be d=
ictate the technical direction of Bitcoin. However, it is important that th=
ere is mutual respect and trust between users and devs.

Right now, trust is pretty broken. It can be regained, but not without unde=
rstanding what went wrong in the first place.

I saw on IRC some devs suggesting they spend time on podcasts and social me=
dia to explain the motivations behind this proposal *before* merging it, in=
stead of merging now and hoping people just accept it. I think that=E2=80=
=99s a fantastic idea, and the way to go. I particularly liked jonatack's m=
essage - =E2=80=9Cif Core shows humility and patience, it would surprise pe=
ople and improve things.=E2=80=9D

Now, about the proposal itself and what it *feels* like: It=E2=80=99s a big=
 change that came out of nowhere, especially at a time when spam doesn=E2=
=80=99t seem like a big issue. It=E2=80=99s a bit=E2=80=A6 shocking? Normal=
ly Bitcoin changes are discussed for ages, PRs take so long to get merged, =
because of all the care that devs put into considering the pros and the con=
s, but here? We get a mailing list post (that no user is reading, let=E2=80=
=99s be honest) and a PR with a lot of contributors saying =E2=80=9Cyeah, l=
et=E2=80=99s do this!=E2=80=9D. There should be a bit more research. (Maybe=
 there was, but behind closed doors?). We want to know about all the protoc=
ols that are bloating the UTXO set and that could be using OP_RETURN instea=
d. We want to know how many transactions like these are in each block, and =
how many there will be once the new protocols start getting deployed. We wa=
nt to see that you did your homework for weeks before trying to change the =
policies.

It feels weird=E2=80=94like some sort of attack or a bribe. One protocol is=
 mentioned that would benefit from this change, and then an investor ACKs t=
he PR. Someone points out a potential conflict of interest, and their comme=
nt gets hidden. That=E2=80=99s shady, no denying it.

And then, it feels that users have no say. It's a ""technocracy"", where de=
vs have all the power in their hands and can decide where the protocol goes=
, while completely dismissing users' concerns.

Users do have concerns=E2=80=94lots of them. And I encourage devs to step o=
ut and talk to "regular" Bitcoin users. It=E2=80=99s not just a =E2=80=9Clo=
ud minority=E2=80=9D=E2=80=94there are many people genuinely worried: =E2=
=80=9CCan we trust Core devs anymore? Is there even another option?=E2=80=
=9D. But their concerns are dismissed, their comments deleted or hidden, th=
ey're treated like "bullies" that devs should ignore, devs should "merge To=
dd's PR and call it a day".

Without understanding all the technical details, I'd say there's a pretty g=
ood chance that the very smart people that work on Core are right once agai=
n. Statistically, it's very likely. Communicate to users, explain your moti=
vations, and show that you want to listen to our concerns.

Lastly, as irritating as that might be, users freaking out and holding core=
 developers accountable and flooding Github is a feature, not a bug. Devs a=
ren't the Bitcoin gods, they are humans, and humans can be bribed,  can be =
coerced, can have conflict of interest, can fck up.

Users care and want to protect Bitcoin. Be grateful.

Respectfully,
A Bitcoin Dev
On Friday, May 2, 2025 at 12:46:20=E2=80=AFAM UTC+2 Antoine Poinsot wrote:
As i have repeatedly asked people to take conceptual discussions to the mai=
ling list, i am circling back to this thread to answer objections. I have a=
lso written my point of view and reasons for proposing this change in a blo=
g post which goes into more details: https://antoinep.com/posts/relay_polic=
y_drama.

Going through the emails in order.

Am I the only one left on this list who actually cares about Bitcoin's surv=
ival?

Thanks Luke for your measured take. It's refreshing to see we have adults o=
n both sides of this "debate".

With that history in mind, removing limits on OP_RETURN standardness size i=
s pointless.

Yes, it is pointless for people who want to store massive amount of data. I=
t is not for people who want to store a small amount of data in a time-sens=
itive transaction's output. Because they need their transaction to be relay=
ed on the p2p network, and are therefore pushed to use unspendable outputs =
instead.

Relaxing OP_RETURN size limits without dealing with the inscriptions

This is orthogonal. The harmful behaviour described in OP is possible today=
 regardless of inscriptions.

There's little to no incentive to use OP_RETURN for data storage when using=
 the 'inscriptions' exploit costs 4x less in transactions. What's the point=
 of having a "standard" way to store arbitrary data if the exploit method i=
s 4x cheaper? And the nonstandard version of the exploit allows 4x the data=
?

You have obviously not properly read or understood OP. There is no need to =
speculate about what would happen or not. People are using outputs to store=
 data today=E2=80=8B. The only question now is harm reduction: given that p=
eople are storing this data in outputs today, do we want to offer a way to =
do it that does not force every single full node on the network to store th=
eir data forever?

That said i agree that this is not going to change anything for people who =
try to store large amount of data onchain, they already have a 4x cheaper w=
ay of doing so.

For example, let's say I want to distribute malware. Well, might as well ju=
st store it in an OP_RETURN.

The point about storing data on everyone's disk was addressed by others: it=
's already possible and that's why Core XOR's the content of third-party-co=
ntrolled data it writes to disk. But an interesting fact on this specific p=
oint about malware and OP_RETURN outputs is how they have already been used=
 in the past to resiliently update the domain of a malware's C2 servers: ht=
tps://news.sophos.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/06/glupteba_final-1.pdf .

This is a fundamental change to the nature of what the Bitcoin network itse=
lf is in its entirety. [...] Bitcoin as we know it changes forever in the m=
ost fundamental way imaginable

Wild emotional claims with no ground whatsoever don't convince anybody and =
only hurt your credibility.

and we might as well give up on Bitcoin ever being a thing if this is the p=
ath chosen

Well if you believe the whole system is as brittle as relying on people pla=
ying nice for security, you might as well give up now.

Have the courage to reject this type of thing for the sake of the overall p=
roject.

Right. We do that, and you go outside and touch some grass for the benefit =
of all subscribers to this mailing list.

If you don't have confidence in the Bitcoin Core developers, instead of ins=
ulting them, you could also just (help) maintain a fork of the project. I o=
bviously think you're misguided here, but at least it's better to channel t=
his distrust into something constructive. Given the number of people who sh=
are your sentiment, such a project should be perfectly viable.

Doubt.

It was suggested in two different PRs ([0] and [1]) that the conceptual dis=
cussion take place in this thread, so I am submitting my comments here.

Thank you for taking conceptual discussion to the mailing list. AJ already =
addressed your claims, so i won't repeat it here.

This is just a temporary cease-fire while the spammers reload their ammunit=
ion. There is obviously about to be another wave

Between this one and your previous email, you certainly do know a lot about=
 the future! How's your trading going?

otherwise what is the point of eliminating OP_RETURN restrictions?

To not force people to bloat the UTxO set to store a trivial amount of data=
 in the output of a time-sensitive transactions. On the specifics, Citrea s=
tores a zk-proof verifying Bitcoin's longest chain composed of a 128-byte G=
roth16 proof and 16-byte total accumulated work (sauce: https://x.com/ekrem=
bal_/status/1918008476552356202). I don't know and don't care why they do i=
t in this way in particular, i just wish they did so in pruneable OP_RETURN=
 outputs instead of unspendable Taproot outputs as they do today. Or worse,=
 start thinking about bare multisig.

Yes, and then the money printer makes sure that there is always enough easy=
 money sloshing around in the economy so that more pop up where the old one=
s dropped out. This can and will continue indefinitely if we do nothing.

Money printer financing working people forever certainly isn't something i =
expected to read on the Bitcoin dev mailing list!

My proposal is not to counter literally every type of spam. Just the ones t=
hat have protocols relying on consistent transaction formats. Creating spec=
ific filters against just these worst offenders should

This is veering off-topic for this thread. If you want to argue that Core s=
hould filter inscriptions could you take it to the appropriate thread? This=
 thread is just about damage control for people storing data in transaction=
 outputs.

I believe you greatly overestimate the skill and competence of the people w=
ho would do this type of thing. You could accomplish what you've laid out. =
I could accomplish it.

Your hubris gives me second-hand embarrassment. I hope the C2 domain update=
 i shared above gives you a clue that there does in fact exist other smart =
people in the world. Threat actors would laugh pretty hard at your arrogant=
 emails and emotional breakdowns, but they probably don't care about your f=
ilters in the slightest anyways.

After reading the whole thread i have yet to read a single sound objection =
to lifting the OP_RETURN restrictions.
On Thursday, April 17th, 2025 at 2:52 PM, Antoine Poinsot <daro...@protonma=
il.com> wrote:

Hi,

Standardness rules exist for 3 mains reasons: mitigate DoS vectors, provide=
 upgrade hooks, or as a nudge to deter some usages.

Bitcoin Core will by default only relay and mine transactions with at most =
a single OP_RETURN output, with a scriptPubKey no larger than 83 bytes. Thi=
s standardness rule falls into the third category: it aims to mildly deter =
data storage while still allowing a less harmful alternative than using non=
-provably-unspendable outputs.

Developers are now designing constructions that work around these limitatio=
ns. An example is Clementine, the recently-announced Citrea bridge, which u=
ses unspendable Taproot outputs to store data in its "WatchtowerChallenge" =
transaction due to the standardness restrictions on the size of OP_RETURNs[=
^0]. Meanwhile, we have witnessed in recent years that the nudge is ineffec=
tive to deter storing data onchain.

Since the restrictions on the usage of OP_RETURN outputs encourage harmful =
practices while being ineffective in deterring unwanted usage, i propose to=
 drop them. I suggest to start by lifting the restriction on the size of th=
e scriptPubKey for OP_RETURN outputs, as a first minimal step to stop encou=
raging harmful behaviour, and to then proceed to lift the restriction on th=
e number of OP_RETURN outputs per transactions.

Antoine Poinsot

[^0]: See section 6.1 of their whitepaper here https://citrea.xyz/clementin=
e_whitepaper.pdf

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<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt">This is my first re=
sponse/comment on this mailing list.&nbsp; I think there are several issues=
 that have risen to the surface here including this one on a broken communi=
cation link (well written message btw).<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></=
span></p>
<ol style=3D"margin-top:0in" start=3D"1" type=3D"1">
<li class=3D"MsoListParagraph" style=3D"margin-left:0in;mso-list:l0 level1 =
lfo1"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt">Those outside of the dev community a=
re perplexed by the process and feeling discounted, unheard, and/or rejecte=
d.&nbsp; Most of the issues/PRs/BIPs that the
 dev community deals with are beyond the ability of the general population =
to understand, but occasionally there are ones that they grasp (at least so=
mewhat) and for which they have opinion.&nbsp; I=E2=80=99ve certainly learn=
ed that when someone has an opinion it is really
 important to let them express it, otherwise, the pressure inside them buil=
ds and they erupt like a volcano.&nbsp; The Bitcoin ecosystem and its membe=
rs are radically different today than 5-10 years ago =E2=80=93 it is bigger=
, wider, and has broader interests now - it appears
 that process and communication mechanisms currently used by Core are not c=
apable of reaching the community properly anymore. Note that communication =
means two-way as well.&nbsp; &nbsp;<br>
<br>
When someone buys Bitcoin or starts working within the ecosystem, there is =
no membership guide, owner=E2=80=99s manual, or employee on-boarding proces=
s.&nbsp; It comes off very badly when someone trying to engage is told that=
 they don=E2=80=99t count or aren=E2=80=99t using proper channels,
 especially when they don=E2=80=99t even know where to go learn the rules o=
f engagement.&nbsp; That isn=E2=80=99t necessarily anyone=E2=80=99s fault, =
but I=E2=80=99ve been involved in Bitcoin since 2017 and even now am still =
learning new things about the engagement process, and there definitely
 have been several surprises and frustrations for me over the past handful =
of days.&nbsp;
<o:p></o:p></span></li></ol>
<p class=3D"MsoListParagraph"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt"><o:p>&nbsp;<=
/o:p></span></p>
<ol style=3D"margin-top:0in" start=3D"2" type=3D"1">
<li class=3D"MsoListParagraph" style=3D"margin-left:0in;mso-list:l0 level1 =
lfo1"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt">The ecosystem is much more complex t=
han ever before with people and companies developing products and services =
with assumptions of how Bitcoin will operate.&nbsp;
 Many of these are being done in stealth-mode as well.&nbsp; Some people ar=
e pouring their heart and soul (and money) into their projects and the expe=
ctation of a standard is often crucial.&nbsp; I am one of these folks, beyo=
nd what I do in mining (CEO of Barefoot Mining)
 and as a board member at Ocean, I have been working for two years on a pro=
ject related to enhancing block space access.&nbsp; This proposed change in=
 standardness may impact my project in a negative manner, and, it is certai=
nly possible others might be in a similar
 position.&nbsp; Regardless, changes to standardness are HUGE.&nbsp; I spen=
t most of my career within the Personal Computer space and learned the hard=
 way that changes to a standards are a dangerous game.&nbsp; &nbsp;I expand=
 a bit on this in this X &nbsp;post:<span style=3D"color:white">:
</span></span><span style=3D"font-size:11.5pt;font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;=
,sans-serif;color:white;background:black"><a href=3D"https://x.com/boomer_b=
tc/status/1917687830148526095"><span style=3D"color:white">https://x.com/bo=
omer_btc/status/1917687830148526095</span></a></span><span style=3D"font-si=
ze:11.0pt"><br>
<br>
<o:p></o:p></span></li><li class=3D"MsoListParagraph" style=3D"margin-left:=
0in;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt">The proposed =
change also appears to be reduction in flexibility and configurability.&nbs=
p; In general, this is never a good thing.&nbsp; IMO, we should be going
 in the direction of giving people more choices and flexibility (although i=
t is fine to make suggestions, set defaults, or provide general guidelines.=
)&nbsp; How someone configures their node and creates their mempool is akin=
 to free speech within Bitcoin. The same
 goes for those like me that are miners and create our own block templates =
=E2=80=93 this is also part of our free speech (and our business).&nbsp; In=
 the end though, whether you are a user or a miner, the more choices you ha=
ve, the more freedom of speech you have.&nbsp;
<o:p></o:p></span></li></ol>
<p class=3D"MsoListParagraph"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt"><br>
Side note: Ultimately, as a miner I am in the business of creating block sp=
ace =E2=80=93 at least that is my view, and contrary to popular belief, min=
ers are not always motivated to simply pick transactions that generate the =
highest block reward in the immediate block,
 and as time goes by this will become even more common and apparent.&nbsp; =
I=E2=80=99ve spoken a lot on this recently in public forums, so I won=E2=80=
=99t dwell on it here.<br>
<br>
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<ol style=3D"margin-top:0in" start=3D"4" type=3D"1">
<li class=3D"MsoListParagraph" style=3D"margin-left:0in;mso-list:l0 level1 =
lfo1"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt">Finally, there is the issue of an OP=
_RETURN change, if it encourages more spam, and if we are just caving into =
an inevitability.&nbsp; I am against the proposed
 change and, even if that is true that the spam will ultimately find a way,=
 I feel we are acquiescing way too early.&nbsp; Enough has been said on thi=
s topic in other forums so I won=E2=80=99t go further.&nbsp;
<br>
<br>
<br>
<o:p></o:p></span></li></ol>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></=
span></p>
<div id=3D"mail-editor-reference-message-container">
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<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in =
0in 0in">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><b><span style=3D"fon=
t-size:12.0pt;color:black">From:
</span></b><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;color:black">bitcoindev@googlegr=
oups.com &lt;bitcoindev@googlegroups.com&gt; on behalf of PandaCute &lt;pan=
dacute12345678@gmail.com&gt;<br>
<b>Date: </b>Friday, May 2, 2025 at 7:11</span><span style=3D"font-size:12.=
0pt;font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-serif;color:black">=E2=80=AF</span><=
span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;color:black">AM<br>
<b>To: </b>Bitcoin Development Mailing List &lt;bitcoindev@googlegroups.com=
&gt;<br>
<b>Subject: </b>[bitcoindev] Re: Relax OP_RETURN standardness restrictions<=
o:p></o:p></span></p>
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portant;direction:revert!important;display:revert!important;font-size:rever=
t!important;height:revert!important;letter-spacing:revert!important;line-he=
ight:revert!important;margin:revert!important;opacity:revert!important;orde=
r:revert!important;outline:revert!important;overflow:revert!important;paddi=
ng:revert!important;position:revert!important;tab-size:revert!important;tab=
le-layout:revert!important;text-align:revert!important;text-indent:revert!i=
mportant;text-orientation:revert!important;text-overflow:revert!important;t=
ext-transform:revert!important;top:revert!important;vertical-align:revert!i=
mportant;visibility:revert!important;white-space:revert!important;width:rev=
ert!important;word-break:revert!important;word-spacing:revert!important;wri=
ting-mode:revert!important;zoom:revert!important;border:0!important;display=
:table!important;width:100%!important;table-layout:fixed!important;border-c=
ollapse:seperate!important;float:none!important;border-spacing:0px 0px!impo=
rtant">
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ert!important;color:revert!important;direction:revert!important;display:rev=
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cing:revert!important;line-height:revert!important;margin:revert!important;=
opacity:revert!important;order:revert!important;outline:revert!important;ov=
erflow:revert!important;padding:revert!important;position:revert!important;=
tab-size:revert!important;table-layout:revert!important;text-align:revert!i=
mportant;text-indent:revert!important;text-orientation:revert!important;tex=
t-overflow:revert!important;text-transform:revert!important;top:revert!impo=
rtant;vertical-align:revert!important;visibility:revert!important;white-spa=
ce:revert!important;width:revert!important;word-break:revert!important;word=
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nt">
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mportant;border:revert!important;bottom:revert!important;color:revert!impor=
tant;direction:revert!important;display:revert!important;font-size:revert!i=
mportant;height:revert!important;letter-spacing:revert!important;line-heigh=
t:revert!important;margin:revert!important;opacity:revert!important;order:r=
evert!important;outline:revert!important;overflow:revert!important;padding:=
revert!important;position:revert!important;tab-size:revert!important;table-=
layout:revert!important;text-align:revert!important;text-indent:revert!impo=
rtant;text-orientation:revert!important;text-overflow:revert!important;text=
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rtant;visibility:revert!important;white-space:revert!important;width:revert=
!important;word-break:revert!important;word-spacing:revert!important;writin=
g-mode:revert!important;zoom:revert!important;padding:2px!important;backgro=
und-color:#A6A6A6!important;width:0px!important">
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<td width=3D"100%" style=3D"width:100.0%;background:#EAEAEA;padding:0in 0in=
 0in 0in;background:revert!important;border:revert!important;bottom:revert!=
important;color:revert!important;direction:revert!important;display:revert!=
important;font-size:revert!important;height:revert!important;letter-spacing=
:revert!important;line-height:revert!important;margin:revert!important;opac=
ity:revert!important;order:revert!important;outline:revert!important;overfl=
ow:revert!important;padding:revert!important;position:revert!important;tab-=
size:revert!important;table-layout:revert!important;text-align:revert!impor=
tant;text-indent:revert!important;text-orientation:revert!important;text-ov=
erflow:revert!important;text-transform:revert!important;top:revert!importan=
t;vertical-align:revert!important;visibility:revert!important;white-space:r=
evert!important;width:revert!important;word-break:revert!important;word-spa=
cing:revert!important;writing-mode:revert!important;zoom:revert!important;w=
idth:100%!important;background-color:#EAEAEA!important;padding:15px!importa=
nt;font-size:12px!important;font-weight:normal!important;color:#212121!impo=
rtant;text-align:left!important;word-wrap:break-word!important">
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<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-element:frame;mso-element-frame-hspace:=
2.25pt;mso-element-wrap:around;mso-element-anchor-vertical:paragraph;mso-el=
ement-anchor-horizontal:column;mso-height-rule:exactly">
<span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;font-family:wf_segoe-ui_normal;color:black"=
>You don't often get email from pandacute12345678@gmail.com.
<a href=3D"https://aka.ms/LearnAboutSenderIdentification">Learn why this is=
 important</a>
</span><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;font-family:wf_segoe-ui_normal"><o:p=
></o:p></span></p>
</div>
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<td style=3D"background:#EAEAEA;padding:0in 0in 0in 0in;background:revert!i=
mportant;border:revert!important;bottom:revert!important;color:revert!impor=
tant;direction:revert!important;display:revert!important;font-size:revert!i=
mportant;height:revert!important;letter-spacing:revert!important;line-heigh=
t:revert!important;margin:revert!important;opacity:revert!important;order:r=
evert!important;outline:revert!important;overflow:revert!important;padding:=
revert!important;position:revert!important;tab-size:revert!important;table-=
layout:revert!important;text-align:revert!important;text-indent:revert!impo=
rtant;text-orientation:revert!important;text-overflow:revert!important;text=
-transform:revert!important;top:revert!important;vertical-align:revert!impo=
rtant;visibility:revert!important;white-space:revert!important;width:revert=
!important;word-break:revert!important;word-spacing:revert!important;writin=
g-mode:revert!important;zoom:revert!important;width:75px!important;backgrou=
nd-color:#EAEAEA!important;padding:5px!important;font-size:12px!important;f=
ont-weight:normal!important;color:#212121!important;text-align:left!importa=
nt;word-wrap:break-word!important">
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</tbody>
</table>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span style=3D"font-s=
ize:12.0pt">I think this debate is missing one important part: a communicat=
ion link between the developers and the users. The developers are speaking =
with the developers, the users are speaking
 with the users, and no one is really trying to understand where the other =
side is coming from. It's been a lot of aggressive, unproductive back-and-f=
orth, with both sides accusing each other of bad intentions and completely =
dismissing each other's points.<br>
<br>
This is a technical mailing list aimed at devs, so I'll try to summarize wh=
at I've seen in normal_users_land, and the general feeling out there right =
now. Obviously, I'm not trying to suggest that users *feelings* should be d=
ictate the technical direction of
 Bitcoin. However, it is important that there is mutual respect and trust b=
etween users and devs.<br>
<br>
Right now, trust is pretty broken. It can be regained, but not without unde=
rstanding what went wrong in the first place.
<br>
<br>
I saw on IRC some devs suggesting they spend time on podcasts and social me=
dia to explain the motivations behind this proposal *before* merging it, in=
stead of merging now and hoping people just accept it. I think that=E2=80=
=99s a fantastic idea, and the way to go.
 I particularly liked jonatack's message - =E2=80=9Cif Core shows humility =
and patience, it would surprise people and improve things.=E2=80=9D<br>
<br>
Now, about the proposal itself and what it *feels* like: It=E2=80=99s a big=
 change that came out of nowhere, especially at a time when spam doesn=E2=
=80=99t seem like a big issue. It=E2=80=99s a bit=E2=80=A6 shocking? Normal=
ly Bitcoin changes are discussed for ages, PRs take so long to get
 merged, because of all the care that devs put into considering the pros an=
d the cons, but here? We get a mailing list post (that no user is reading, =
let=E2=80=99s be honest) and a PR with a lot of contributors saying =E2=80=
=9Cyeah, let=E2=80=99s do this!=E2=80=9D. There should be a bit more
 research. (Maybe there was, but behind closed doors?). We want to know abo=
ut all the protocols that are bloating the UTXO set and that could be using=
 OP_RETURN instead. We want to know how many transactions like these are in=
 each block, and how many there
 will be once the new protocols start getting deployed. We want to see that=
 you did your homework for weeks before trying to change the policies.
<br>
<br>
It feels weird=E2=80=94like some sort of attack or a bribe. One protocol is=
 mentioned that would benefit from this change, and then an investor ACKs t=
he PR. Someone points out a potential conflict of interest, and their comme=
nt gets hidden. That=E2=80=99s shady, no denying
 it.<br>
<br>
And then, it feels that users have no say. It's a &quot;&quot;technocracy&q=
uot;&quot;, where devs have all the power in their hands and can decide whe=
re the protocol goes, while completely dismissing users' concerns.<br>
<br>
Users do have concerns=E2=80=94lots of them. And I encourage devs to step o=
ut and talk to &quot;regular&quot; Bitcoin users. It=E2=80=99s not just a =
=E2=80=9Cloud minority=E2=80=9D=E2=80=94there are many people genuinely wor=
ried: =E2=80=9CCan we trust Core devs anymore? Is there even another option=
?=E2=80=9D. But their concerns
 are dismissed, their comments deleted or hidden, they're treated like &quo=
t;bullies&quot; that devs should ignore, devs should &quot;merge Todd's PR =
and call it a day&quot;.<br>
<br>
Without understanding all the technical details, I'd say there's a pretty g=
ood chance that the very smart people that work on Core are right once agai=
n. Statistically, it's very likely. Communicate to users, explain your moti=
vations, and show that you want
 to listen to our concerns.<br>
<br>
Lastly, as irritating as that might be, users freaking out and holding core=
 developers accountable and flooding Github is a feature, not a bug. Devs a=
ren't the Bitcoin gods, they are humans, and humans can be bribed, &nbsp;ca=
n be coerced, can have conflict of interest,
 can fck up.<br>
<br>
Users care and want to protect Bitcoin. Be grateful. <br>
<br>
Respectfully,<br>
A Bitcoin Dev<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt">On Friday, May 2, 2=
025 at 12:46:20</span><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ari=
al&quot;,sans-serif">=E2=80=AF</span><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt">AM UT=
C+2 Antoine Poinsot wrote:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<blockquote style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0i=
n 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0in">
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt">As i have repeatedl=
y asked people to take conceptual discussions to the mailing list, i am cir=
cling back to this thread to answer objections. I have also written my poin=
t of view and reasons for proposing
 this change in a blog post which goes into more details:&nbsp;<a href=3D"h=
ttps://antoinep.com/posts/relay_policy_drama" target=3D"_blank">https://ant=
oinep.com/posts/relay_policy_drama</a>.
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></=
span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt">Going through the e=
mails in order.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></=
span></p>
</div>
<blockquote style=3D"border:none #C8C8C8 1.0pt;border-left:solid #C8C8C8 2.=
25pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 8.0pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Ar=
ial&quot;,sans-serif;color:#666666">Am I the only one left on this list who=
 actually cares about Bitcoin's survival?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></=
span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Ar=
ial&quot;,sans-serif;color:black;background:white">Thanks Luke for your mea=
sured take. It's refreshing to see we have adults on both sides of this &qu=
ot;debate&quot;.</span><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt"><o:p></o:p></span><=
/p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Ar=
ial&quot;,sans-serif"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
</div>
<blockquote style=3D"border:none #C8C8C8 1.0pt;border-left:solid #C8C8C8 2.=
25pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 8.0pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Ar=
ial&quot;,sans-serif;color:#666666">With that history in mind, removing lim=
its on OP_RETURN standardness size is pointless.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></=
span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt">Yes, it is pointles=
s for people who want to store massive amount of data. It is not for people=
 who want to store a small amount of data in a time-sensitive transaction's=
 output. Because they need their transaction
 to be relayed on the p2p network, and are therefore pushed to use unspenda=
ble outputs instead.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></=
span></p>
</div>
<blockquote style=3D"border:none #C8C8C8 1.0pt;border-left:solid #C8C8C8 2.=
25pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 8.0pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;color:#666666">Relax=
ing OP_RETURN size limits without dealing with the inscriptions<o:p></o:p><=
/span></p>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></=
span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt">This is orthogonal.=
 The harmful behaviour described in OP is possible today regardless of insc=
riptions.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></=
span></p>
</div>
<blockquote style=3D"border:none #C8C8C8 1.0pt;border-left:solid #C8C8C8 2.=
25pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 8.0pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;color:#666666">There=
's little to no incentive to use OP_RETURN for data storage when using the =
'inscriptions' exploit costs 4x less in transactions. What's the point of h=
aving a &quot;standard&quot; way to store arbitrary
 data if the exploit method is 4x cheaper? And the nonstandard version of t=
he exploit allows 4x the data?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></=
span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Ar=
ial&quot;,sans-serif;color:black;background:white">You have obviously not p=
roperly read or understood OP.&nbsp;There is no need to speculate about wha=
t would happen or not. People are using outputs to
 store data <b>today</b>=E2=80=8B. The only question now is harm reduction:=
 given that people are storing this data in outputs today, do we want to of=
fer a way to do it that does not force every single full node on the networ=
k to store their data forever?
</span><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></=
span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Ar=
ial&quot;,sans-serif;color:black;background:white">That said i agree that t=
his is not going to change anything for people who try to store large amoun=
t of data onchain, they already have a 4x cheaper
 way of doing so.</span><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt"><o:p></o:p></span>=
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></=
span></p>
</div>
<div>
<blockquote style=3D"border:none #C8C8C8 1.0pt;border-left:solid #C8C8C8 2.=
25pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 8.0pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;color:#666666">For e=
xample, let's say I want to distribute malware. Well, might as well just st=
ore it in an OP_RETURN.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</blockquote>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></=
span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Ar=
ial&quot;,sans-serif;color:black;background:white">The point about storing =
data on everyone's disk was addressed by others: it's already possible and =
that's why Core XOR's the content of third-party-controlled
 data it writes to disk. But an interesting fact on this specific point abo=
ut malware and OP_RETURN outputs is how they have already been used in the =
past to resiliently update the domain of a malware's C2 servers:
<a href=3D"https://news.sophos.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/06/glupteba_fina=
l-1.pdf" target=3D"_blank">
https://news.sophos.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/06/glupteba_final-1.pdf</a>=
 .</span><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></=
span></p>
</div>
<div>
<blockquote style=3D"border:none #C8C8C8 1.0pt;border-left:solid #C8C8C8 2.=
25pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 8.0pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;color:#666666">This =
is a fundamental change to the nature of what the Bitcoin network itself is=
 in its entirety. [...] Bitcoin as we know it changes forever in the most f=
undamental way imaginable<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</blockquote>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></=
span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt">Wild emotional clai=
ms with no ground whatsoever don't convince anybody and only hurt your cred=
ibility.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></=
span></p>
</div>
<blockquote style=3D"border:none #C8C8C8 1.0pt;border-left:solid #C8C8C8 2.=
25pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 8.0pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;color:#666666">and w=
e might as well give up on Bitcoin ever being a thing if this is the path c=
hosen<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></=
span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Ar=
ial&quot;,sans-serif;color:black;background:white">Well if you believe the =
whole system is as brittle as relying on people playing nice for security, =
you might as well give up now.</span><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt"><o:p>=
</o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></=
span></p>
</div>
<blockquote style=3D"border:none #C8C8C8 1.0pt;border-left:solid #C8C8C8 2.=
25pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 8.0pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;color:#666666">Have =
the courage to reject this type of thing for the sake of the overall projec=
t.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></=
span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Ar=
ial&quot;,sans-serif;color:black;background:white">Right. We do that, and y=
ou go outside and touch some grass for the benefit of all subscribers to th=
is mailing list.</span><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt"><o:p></o:p></span><=
/p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></=
span></p>
</div>
<div>
<blockquote style=3D"border:none #C8C8C8 1.0pt;border-left:solid #C8C8C8 2.=
25pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 8.0pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Ar=
ial&quot;,sans-serif;color:#666666;background:white">If you don't have conf=
idence in the Bitcoin Core developers, instead of insulting them, you could=
 also just (help) maintain a fork of the project.
 I obviously think you're misguided here, but at least it's better to chann=
el this distrust into something constructive. Given the number of people wh=
o share your sentiment,
<b>such a project should be perfectly viable</b>. <o:p></o:p></span></p>
</blockquote>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></=
span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Ar=
ial&quot;,sans-serif;color:black;background:white">Doubt.</span><span style=
=3D"font-size:12.0pt"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></=
span></p>
</div>
<div>
<blockquote style=3D"border:none #C8C8C8 1.0pt;border-left:solid #C8C8C8 2.=
25pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 8.0pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ar=
ial&quot;,sans-serif;color:#666666;background:white">It was suggested in tw=
o different PRs ([0] and [1]) that the conceptual discussion take place in =
this thread, so I am submitting my comments here.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</blockquote>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></=
span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Ar=
ial&quot;,sans-serif;color:black;background:white">Thank you for taking con=
ceptual discussion to the mailing list. AJ already addressed your claims, s=
o i won't repeat it here.</span><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt"><o:p></o:p=
></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></=
span></p>
</div>
<div>
<blockquote style=3D"border:none #C8C8C8 1.0pt;border-left:solid #C8C8C8 2.=
25pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 8.0pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ar=
ial&quot;,sans-serif;color:#666666;background:white">This is just a tempora=
ry cease-fire while the spammers reload their ammunition. There is obviousl=
y about to be another wave<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</blockquote>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></=
span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt">Between this one an=
d your previous email, you certainly do know a lot about the future! How's =
your trading going?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></=
span></p>
</div>
<div>
<blockquote style=3D"border:none #C8C8C8 1.0pt;border-left:solid #C8C8C8 2.=
25pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 8.0pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ar=
ial&quot;,sans-serif;color:#666666;background:white">otherwise what is the =
point of eliminating OP_RETURN restrictions?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</blockquote>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></=
span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Ar=
ial&quot;,sans-serif;color:black;background:white">To not force people to b=
loat the UTxO set to store a trivial amount of data in the output of a time=
-sensitive transactions. On the specifics, Citrea
 stores a zk-proof verifying Bitcoin's longest chain composed of a 128-byte=
 Groth16 proof and 16-byte total accumulated work (sauce:
<a href=3D"https://x.com/ekrembal_/status/1918008476552356202" target=3D"_b=
lank">https://x.com/ekrembal_/status/1918008476552356202</a>). I don't know=
 and don't care why they do it in this way in particular, i just wish they =
did so in pruneable OP_RETURN outputs
 instead of unspendable Taproot outputs as they do today. Or worse, start t=
hinking about bare multisig.</span><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt"><o:p></=
o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></=
span></p>
</div>
<div>
<blockquote style=3D"border:none #C8C8C8 1.0pt;border-left:solid #C8C8C8 2.=
25pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 8.0pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ar=
ial&quot;,sans-serif;color:#666666;background:white">Yes, and then the mone=
y printer makes sure that there is always enough easy money sloshing around=
 in the economy so that more pop up where the
 old ones dropped out. This can and will continue indefinitely if we do not=
hing.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</blockquote>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></=
span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Ar=
ial&quot;,sans-serif;color:black;background:white">Money printer financing =
working people forever certainly isn't something i expected to read on the =
Bitcoin dev mailing list!</span><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt"><o:p></o:p=
></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></=
span></p>
</div>
<blockquote style=3D"border:none #C8C8C8 1.0pt;border-left:solid #C8C8C8 2.=
25pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 8.0pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;color:#666666">My pr=
oposal is not to counter literally every type of spam. Just the ones that h=
ave protocols relying on consistent transaction formats. Creating specific =
filters against just these worst offenders
 should<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</blockquote>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></=
span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Ar=
ial&quot;,sans-serif;color:black;background:white">This is veering off-topi=
c for this thread. If you want to argue that Core should filter inscription=
s could you take it to the appropriate thread?
 This thread is just about damage control for people storing data in transa=
ction outputs.</span><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt"><o:p></o:p></span></p=
>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></=
span></p>
</div>
<blockquote style=3D"border:none #C8C8C8 1.0pt;border-left:solid #C8C8C8 2.=
25pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 8.0pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;color:#666666">I bel=
ieve you greatly overestimate the skill and competence of the people who wo=
uld do this type of thing. You could accomplish what you've laid out. I cou=
ld accomplish it.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white"><span style=3D"font-size:=
10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-serif;color:black"><o:p>&nbsp;</o=
:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white"><span style=3D"font-size:=
10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-serif;color:black">Your hubris gi=
ves me second-hand embarrassment. I hope the C2 domain update i shared abov=
e gives you a clue that there does in fact exist
 other smart people in the world. Threat actors would laugh pretty hard at =
your arrogant emails and emotional breakdowns, but they probably don't care=
 about your filters in the slightest anyways.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white"><span style=3D"font-size:=
10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-serif;color:black"><o:p>&nbsp;</o=
:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"background:white"><span style=3D"font-size:=
10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-serif;color:black">After reading =
the whole thread i have yet to read a single sound objection to lifting the=
 OP_RETURN restrictions.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt">On Thursday, April =
17th, 2025 at 2:52 PM, Antoine Poinsot &lt;<span class=3D"MsoHyperlink">dar=
o...@protonmail.com</span>&gt; wrote:<br>
<br>
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Ar=
ial&quot;,sans-serif">Hi,<br>
<br>
Standardness rules exist for 3 mains reasons: mitigate DoS vectors, provide=
 upgrade hooks, or as a nudge to deter some usages.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Ar=
ial&quot;,sans-serif"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Ar=
ial&quot;,sans-serif">Bitcoin Core will by default only relay and mine tran=
sactions with at most a single OP_RETURN output, with a scriptPubKey no lar=
ger than 83 bytes. This standardness rule falls
 into the third category: it aims to mildly deter data storage while still =
allowing a less harmful alternative than using non-provably-unspendable out=
puts.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Ar=
ial&quot;,sans-serif"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Ar=
ial&quot;,sans-serif">Developers are now designing constructions that work =
around these limitations. An example is Clementine, the recently-announced =
Citrea bridge, which uses unspendable Taproot
 outputs to store data in its &quot;WatchtowerChallenge&quot; transaction d=
ue to the standardness restrictions on the size of OP_RETURNs[^0]. Meanwhil=
e, we have witnessed in recent years that the nudge is ineffective to deter=
 storing data onchain.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Ar=
ial&quot;,sans-serif"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Ar=
ial&quot;,sans-serif">Since the restrictions on the usage of OP_RETURN outp=
uts encourage harmful practices while being ineffective in deterring unwant=
ed usage, i propose to drop them. I suggest to
 start by lifting the restriction on the size of the scriptPubKey for OP_RE=
TURN outputs, as a first minimal step to stop encouraging harmful behaviour=
, and to then proceed to lift the restriction on the number of OP_RETURN ou=
tputs per transactions.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Ar=
ial&quot;,sans-serif"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Ar=
ial&quot;,sans-serif">Antoine Poinsot<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Ar=
ial&quot;,sans-serif"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Ar=
ial&quot;,sans-serif">[^0]: See section 6.1 of their whitepaper here
<a href=3D"https://citrea.xyz/clementine_whitepaper.pdf" target=3D"_blank">=
https://citrea.xyz/clementine_whitepaper.pdf</a><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</blockquote>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></=
span></p>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
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