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From: Saint Wenhao <saintwenhao@gmail.com>
Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2025 08:11:08 +0200
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Subject: Re: [bitcoindev] Unbreaking testnet4
To: Jameson Lopp <jameson.lopp@gmail.com>
Cc: Bitcoin Development Mailing List <bitcoindev@googlegroups.com>
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> Demurrage might be asking a bit much in terms of deviation.

If that's the case, then why signing all blocks in signet is not "too
much"? Or why unlimited supply is not "too much"? All of these changes were
put in the same basket of "Require unanimous consent", so why one kind of
change is better or worse than the others? All of them deviates from the
mainnet, and we probably wouldn't want anything like that on the original
chain anyway.

> I'd think that testnets should be reset more frequently than that.

Then why don't we put any kind of reset logic into testnet5 consensus
rules? Because when nothing like that is present, then testnets can
potentially run forever. Testnet3 is becoming an altcoin, and new testnets
will also be, if no significant changes will be made. Signet is not traded
yet, mainly because of centralized mining, but there already are
centralized altcoin federations, so it may change in the future.

And again, the word "reset" should be replaced by "abandon", unless you
really want to reorganize the whole old chain of some existing testnet, by
producing a stronger alternative chain in testnet5, which would replace the
old network in a backward-compatible way, by mining everything on top of
the same Genesis Block, and eventually producing a bigger chainwork.

pon., 28 kwi 2025 o 00:50 Jameson Lopp <jameson.lopp@gmail.com> napisa=C5=
=82(a):

>
>
> On Sun, Apr 27, 2025 at 12:47=E2=80=AFPM Saint Wenhao <saintwenhao@gmail.=
com>
> wrote:
>
>> What about introducing demurrage in testnet5 consensus rules?
>>
> In general it seems desirable for a testnet to be as close as possible to
> mainnet's rules. Demurrage might be asking a bit much in terms of deviati=
on.
>
> I'd suggest simply disabling the halving logic and making it a perpetual
> 50 TBTC issuance. At that rate, it would still take ~8 years or so to
> surpass the 21M limit and I'd think that testnets should be reset more
> frequently than that.
>
>>
>> Testnet coins were supposed to be worthless. But it failed in both
>> testnet3 and testnet4. In the meanwhile, signet was introduced, to make =
a
>> more stable test network. However, signing blocks was listed on wiki pag=
e
>> https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Prohibited_changes as something, that
>> "Require unanimous consent". And, as the history can tell us, people sti=
ll
>> wanted to test mining anyway, which is why testnet3 and testnet4 have mu=
ch
>> more chainwork than signet (and when it comes to signet, sending
>> signed-but-unmined blocks to the miners was never implemented, so they h=
ad
>> no chance to provide more hashing power).
>>
>> Another kind of change on the list, that would require consent, was
>> increasing the total number of coins beyond 21 million. But then, testin=
g
>> supply limits would be harder, and it could cause integer overflows in s=
ome
>> cases. But: in all test networks, including testnet3, testnet4, and sign=
et,
>> there was never a problem of "not enough coins for miners", so that chan=
ge
>> probably wouldn't solve any problems (and seeing it in action would take
>> years anyway; testnet4 is still far from the first halving, and it is
>> traded anyway, so that change won't fix it).
>>
>> Then, we have the third option, which was not yet tried in test networks=
:
>> demurrage. There are two main options: burning coins, or re-assigning th=
em
>> to someone else. To make a soft-fork out of it, re-assigning would be
>> backward-incompatible, so it is probably easier to just implement burnin=
g,
>> and just treat all coins older than N blocks in the same way, as OP_RETU=
RN,
>> by simply invalidating transactions spending them on consensus level.
>>
>> Also, when it comes to maintaining testnet nodes, if it would be possibl=
e
>> to automatically remove things from the UTXO set, then it would make
>> Initial Blockchain Download easier, just because new nodes wouldn't need=
 to
>> synchronize everything, if old coins would be automatically invalidated.=
 In
>> practice, all nodes could be just running in pruned mode all the time, a=
nd
>> everything beyond the pruning point, could be simply ignored on consensu=
s
>> level (which would also prevent the UTXO set from exploding). And then, =
if
>> we would keep for example the last 2,016 blocks, then the whole chain wo=
uld
>> never take more than 2016 * 4 MB =3D 8.064 GB of storage, and that's all=
 we
>> would need to send during Initial Blockchain Download to other nodes.
>>
>> poniedzia=C5=82ek, 31 marca 2025 o 22:50:27 UTC+2 Antoine Poinsot napisa=
=C5=82(a):
>>
>>> Good point on not having the flag day on a holiday. One or two weeks
>>> sounds good to me.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Monday, March 24th, 2025 at 8:25 AM, Murch <mu...@murch.one> wrote:
>>>
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > Errr, I wrote the same date as you, but I meant a week later,
>>> 2026-01-08
>>> > instead.
>>> >
>>> > -Murch
>>> >
>>> > On 2025-03-21 14:20, Murch wrote:
>>> >
>>> > > Hey Antoine and everyone,
>>> > >
>>> > > What you suggest makes sense to me. Since the 20-minute difficulty
>>> > > exception is now exploited perpetually, it doesn=E2=80=99t serve it=
s
>>> intended
>>> > > purpose of allowing developers to mine themselves a few coins easil=
y
>>> or
>>> > > confirm their own non-standard transactions. In that case, it would
>>> be
>>> > > better to not have it at all.
>>> > >
>>> > > On 2025-03-18 07:29, 'Antoine Poinsot' via Bitcoin Development
>>> Mailing
>>> > > List wrote:
>>> > >
>>> > > > I propose to fix this by removing the difficulty reset rule from
>>> > > > testnet4 through a flag day hard fork on 2026-01-01.
>>> > >
>>> > > I would suggest to pick a date that=E2=80=99s not a holiday in many=
 places
>>> to
>>> > > avoid disrupting people=E2=80=99s holiday, how about 2026-01-01 ins=
tead?
>>> > >
>>> > > Cheers,
>>> > > Murch
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > --
>>> > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
>>> Groups "Bitcoin Development Mailing List" group.
>>> > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, sen=
d
>>> an email to bitcoindev+...@googlegroups.com.
>>> > To view this discussion visit
>>> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/bitcoindev/7c6800f0-7b77-4aca-a4f9-25=
06a2410b29%40murch.one.
>>>
>>>
>> --
>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Group=
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>> "Bitcoin Development Mailing List" group.
>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send a=
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>> email to bitcoindev+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
>> To view this discussion visit
>> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/bitcoindev/672cb527-9005-46fc-be2c-450=
8d39cfd7dn%40googlegroups.com
>> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/bitcoindev/672cb527-9005-46fc-be2c-45=
08d39cfd7dn%40googlegroups.com?utm_medium=3Demail&utm_source=3Dfooter>
>> .
>>
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<div dir=3D"ltr">&gt; Demurrage might be asking a bit much in terms of devi=
ation.<br><br>If that&#39;s the case, then why signing all blocks in signet=
 is not &quot;too much&quot;? Or why unlimited supply is not &quot;too much=
&quot;? All of these changes were put in the same basket of &quot;Require u=
nanimous consent&quot;, so why one kind of change is better or worse than t=
he others? All of them deviates from the mainnet, and we probably wouldn&#3=
9;t want anything like that on the original chain anyway.<br><br>&gt; I&#39=
;d think that testnets should be reset more frequently than that.<br><br>Th=
en why don&#39;t we put any kind of reset logic into testnet5 consensus rul=
es? Because when nothing like that is present, then testnets can potentiall=
y run forever. Testnet3 is becoming an altcoin, and new testnets will also =
be, if no significant changes will be made. Signet is not traded yet, mainl=
y because of centralized mining, but there already are centralized altcoin =
federations, so it may change in the future.<br><br>And again, the word &qu=
ot;reset&quot; should be replaced by &quot;abandon&quot;, unless you really=
 want to reorganize the whole old chain of some existing testnet, by produc=
ing a stronger alternative chain in testnet5, which would replace the old n=
etwork in a backward-compatible way, by mining everything on top of the sam=
e Genesis Block, and eventually producing a bigger chainwork.</div><br><div=
 class=3D"gmail_quote gmail_quote_container"><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmai=
l_attr">pon., 28 kwi 2025 o 00:50=C2=A0Jameson Lopp &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:j=
ameson.lopp@gmail.com">jameson.lopp@gmail.com</a>&gt; napisa=C5=82(a):<br><=
/div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;bo=
rder-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><di=
v dir=3D"ltr"><br></div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr" cla=
ss=3D"gmail_attr">On Sun, Apr 27, 2025 at 12:47=E2=80=AFPM Saint Wenhao &lt=
;<a href=3D"mailto:saintwenhao@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">saintwenhao@gma=
il.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"m=
argin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left=
:1ex">What about introducing demurrage in testnet5 consensus rules?<br></bl=
ockquote><div>In general it seems desirable for a testnet to be as close as=
 possible to mainnet&#39;s rules. Demurrage might be asking a bit much in t=
erms of deviation.</div><div><br></div><div>I&#39;d suggest simply disablin=
g the halving logic and making it a perpetual 50 TBTC issuance. At that rat=
e, it would still take ~8 years or so to surpass the 21M limit and I&#39;d =
think that testnets should be reset more frequently than that.</div><blockq=
uote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1p=
x solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><br>Testnet coins were supposed =
to be worthless. But it failed in both testnet3 and testnet4. In the meanwh=
ile, signet was introduced, to make a more stable test network. However, si=
gning blocks was listed on wiki page <a href=3D"https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/=
Prohibited_changes" target=3D"_blank">https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Prohibited=
_changes</a> as something, that &quot;Require unanimous consent&quot;. And,=
 as the history can tell us, people still wanted to test mining anyway, whi=
ch is why testnet3 and testnet4 have much more chainwork than signet (and w=
hen it comes to signet, sending signed-but-unmined blocks to the miners was=
 never implemented, so they had no chance to provide more hashing power).<b=
r><br>Another kind of change on the list, that would require consent, was i=
ncreasing the total number of coins beyond 21 million. But then, testing su=
pply limits would be harder, and it could cause integer overflows in some c=
ases. But: in all test networks, including testnet3, testnet4, and signet, =
there was never a problem of &quot;not enough coins for miners&quot;, so th=
at change probably wouldn&#39;t solve any problems (and seeing it in action=
 would take years anyway; testnet4 is still far from the first halving, and=
 it is traded anyway, so that change won&#39;t fix it).<br><br>Then, we hav=
e the third option, which was not yet tried in test networks: demurrage. Th=
ere are two main options: burning coins, or re-assigning them to someone el=
se. To make a soft-fork out of it, re-assigning would be backward-incompati=
ble, so it is probably easier to just implement burning, and just treat all=
 coins older than N blocks in the same way, as OP_RETURN, by simply invalid=
ating transactions spending them on consensus level.<br><br>Also, when it c=
omes to maintaining testnet nodes, if it would be possible to automatically=
 remove things from the UTXO set, then it would make Initial Blockchain Dow=
nload easier, just because new nodes wouldn&#39;t need to synchronize every=
thing, if old coins would be automatically invalidated. In practice, all no=
des could be just running in pruned mode all the time, and everything beyon=
d the pruning point, could be simply ignored on consensus level (which woul=
d also prevent the UTXO set from exploding). And then, if we would keep for=
 example the last 2,016 blocks, then the whole chain would never take more =
than 2016 * 4 MB =3D 8.064 GB of storage, and that&#39;s all we would need =
to send during Initial Blockchain Download to other nodes.<br><br><div clas=
s=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"auto" class=3D"gmail_attr">poniedzia=C5=82ek,=
 31 marca 2025 o=C2=A022:50:27 UTC+2 Antoine Poinsot napisa=C5=82(a):<br></=
div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;bor=
der-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">Good point on not hav=
ing the flag day on a holiday. One or two weeks sounds good to me.
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>On Monday, March 24th, 2025 at 8:25 AM, Murch &lt;mu...@murch.one&gt; w=
rote:
<br>
<br>&gt;=20
<br>&gt;=20
<br>&gt; Errr, I wrote the same date as you, but I meant a week later, 2026=
-01-08
<br>&gt; instead.
<br>&gt;=20
<br>&gt; -Murch
<br>&gt;=20
<br>&gt; On 2025-03-21 14:20, Murch wrote:
<br>&gt;=20
<br>&gt; &gt; Hey Antoine and everyone,
<br>&gt; &gt;=20
<br>&gt; &gt; What you suggest makes sense to me. Since the 20-minute diffi=
culty
<br>&gt; &gt; exception is now exploited perpetually, it doesn=E2=80=99t se=
rve its intended
<br>&gt; &gt; purpose of allowing developers to mine themselves a few coins=
 easily or
<br>&gt; &gt; confirm their own non-standard transactions. In that case, it=
 would be
<br>&gt; &gt; better to not have it at all.
<br>&gt; &gt;=20
<br>&gt; &gt; On 2025-03-18 07:29, &#39;Antoine Poinsot&#39; via Bitcoin De=
velopment Mailing
<br>&gt; &gt; List wrote:
<br>&gt; &gt;=20
<br>&gt; &gt; &gt; I propose to fix this by removing the difficulty reset r=
ule from
<br>&gt; &gt; &gt; testnet4 through a flag day hard fork on 2026-01-01.
<br>&gt; &gt;=20
<br>&gt; &gt; I would suggest to pick a date that=E2=80=99s not a holiday i=
n many places to
<br>&gt; &gt; avoid disrupting people=E2=80=99s holiday, how about 2026-01-=
01 instead?
<br>&gt; &gt;=20
<br>&gt; &gt; Cheers,
<br>&gt; &gt; Murch
<br>&gt;=20
<br>&gt;=20
<br>&gt; --
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/d/msgid/bitcoindev/7c6800f0-7b77-4aca-a4f9-2506a2410b29%40murch.one" rel=
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v/7c6800f0-7b77-4aca-a4f9-2506a2410b29%40murch.one</a>.
<br></blockquote></div>

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</blockquote></div>

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