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Subject: Re: [bitcoindev] CTV + CSFS: a letter
To: "Anthony Towns" <aj@erisian.com.au>
Cc: "Andrew Poelstra" <apoelstra@wpsoftware.net>, "Bitcoin Development
 Mailing List" <bitcoindev@googlegroups.com>
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From: "Harsha Goli" <harshagoli@gmail.com>
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>=20
> =E2=80=8B I think the easy way to do this is to expect both an implementa=
tion of
> the features in question, and an interesting MVP/demo of how those
> features can be used in practice. You then draw the line between a
> collection of features that's implemented and has useful demos, versus
> ones that aren't implemented or don't yet have interesting demos.
>=20
>=20

>=20
> =E2=80=8B....
>=20
> =E2=80=8B....
>=20
>=20

>=20
> =E2=80=8B (b) there has been huge resistance to the idea of implementing =
demos of
> useful things on top of proposed features when that's brought up as
> something people might expect to see prior to feature activation
>=20
>=20

After discussing this further with Matt Corallo in another thread, I find m=
yself agreeing with this perspective. It makes sense to require both actual=
 implementation and convincing demonstrations as a way to move forward. How=
ever, creating these demonstrations is not an easy task. Although there are=
 already written explanations for CTV + CSFS, the response to those efforts=
 has left many supporters of these changes feeling unsure. They=E2=80=99re =
not confident that putting in more time and resources will lead to real pro=
gress.

The situation seems to split into two distinct groups. First, there are the=
 smaller Bitcoin-focused teams=C2=A0(many of whom we know personally) that =
are resource constrained. These teams could leverage covenants in innovativ=
e ways, but they=E2=80=99re operating on tight budgets. For them, participa=
ting in this process can=E2=80=99t be a leap of faith; they need more assur=
ance that their efforts won=E2=80=99t be in vain, especially given how long=
 CTV (now with=C2=A0CSFS) has been in discussion (6 years!). As Tiero=C2=A0=
from ArkLabs put it: " @ArkLabsHQ ( https://x.com/ArkLabsHQ ) might not eve=
n exist by the time a soft fork is implemented."

On the other hand, there are the large-scale custodians with significant re=
sources at their disposal. These organizations could theoretically drive ad=
option, but even for them, the uncertainty around activation makes it a ris=
ky bet. Instead, they=E2=80=99ve opted for more predictable solutions, like=
 establishing Trust companies, which provide legal guarantees and protectio=
ns such as bankruptcy remoteness. While this approach is costly and time-in=
tensive, it=E2=80=99s seen as a safer and more reliable path. We've already=
 watched major players like NYDIG, BitGo, and ZeroHash go this route.

As a result, we=E2=80=99re in a tough spot. Those with the resources to con=
tribute are prioritizing legal frameworks over engineering solutions, while=
 smaller teams that could truly benefit from CTV are holding back to avoid =
jeopardizing their survival.

>=20
> =E2=80=8B From my perspective, the CTV discussion has missed important st=
eps, and
> instead of those steps being taken, advocates have been attempting to use
> public pressure to force adoption on an "accelerated timeline" pretty muc=
h
> continuously for at least three years now. I've tried to help CTV
> advocates take the steps I believe they've missed, but it's mostly
> resulted in silence or insults rather than anything constructive.
>=20
>=20

I went through the Bitcoin forking guide in detail and found it both impres=
sive and incredibly useful. I=E2=80=99ve even put together a checklist insp=
ired by it, which I=E2=80=99m actively using to ensure I=E2=80=99m covering=
 every step thoroughly. This ties into the industry survey I mentioned earl=
ier (something I=E2=80=99m genuinely excited about).

I=E2=80=99ve tried reaching out a few times via delving and Twitter DMs to =
get your feedback but haven=E2=80=99t heard back yet (I don't have your tel=
egram or signal!). Since you seem open to sharing input here, I=E2=80=99d l=
ove to hear your thoughts on my approach. Your perspective would mean a lot=
!

>=20
> =E2=80=8BMatt's already raised some specific issues in this thread that c=
ould be
> engaged with and resolved
>=20
>=20

I broke out in a private email thread to address his concerns. I'm bringing=
 the core of our issues back to the main thread here (at the top of this=C2=
=A0email).

Thank you,

Harsha, sometimes known as arshbot

On Fri, Jun 13, 2025 at 2:19 AM, Anthony Towns < aj@erisian.com.au > wrote:

>=20
>=20
>=20
> On Tue, Jun 10, 2025 at 01:23:06PM +0000, Andrew Poelstra wrote:
>=20
>=20
>=20
>>=20
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>> The usual purpose of an open letter is to generate public pressure agai=
nst
>>> the target (otherwise, if you didn't want to generate public pressure, =
you
>>> would send a private letter).
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>> There isn't really any place to send a "private" letter.
>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
> Here's one way to get a list of such places:
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
> $ git log src/script/ | grep ^Author: | head -n10000 | sort | uniq -c |
> sort -rn | head -n20
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
> I feel pretty sure you've got my telegram contact info too, if nothing
> else.
>=20
>=20
>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>> And of course I could email specific developers personally, but there ar=
e
>> no individuals that it makes sense to target, because this isn't an
>> individual problem. It's an incentive problem.
>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
> I think if you're looking at it as "targeting" people, that's probably no=
t
> going to be very constructive. It certainly comes across as an implied
> threat.
>=20
>=20
>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>> My goal was to start exactly this discussion, by talking about the role
>> Core plays in this ecosystem and pointing to (in my view) the incentive
>> problems that are getting in the way of that role.
>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
> I've written my perspective of what core's role in this should be
> [0], and am happy to discuss that further if there's some way in which
> that approach falls apart. The approach proposed there doesn't require
> pressuring core for support.
>=20
>=20
>=20
> [0] https:/ / delvingbitcoin. org/ t/ bitcoin-forking-guide/ 1451 (
> https://delvingbitcoin.org/t/bitcoin-forking-guide/1451 )
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
> From my perspective, the CTV discussion has missed important steps, and
> instead of those steps being taken, advocates have been attempting to use
> public pressure to force adoption on an "accelerated timeline" pretty muc=
h
> continuously for at least three years now. I've tried to help CTV
> advocates take the steps I believe they've missed, but it's mostly
> resulted in silence or insults rather than anything constructive. At leas=
t
> from where I sit, this is just creating incentive problems, not solving
> them.
>=20
>=20
>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>> I apologize if it comes off as an ultimatum -- it has a timeline, but on=
e
>> for a "respectful ask" for "review and integration" and no specified
>> consquences
>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
> Asking for "integration" as well as review presupposes the outcome of the
> review, which doesn't come across as very respectful of the reviewers'
> opinions, for what it's worth.
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
> To analogise to book publishing, there are two sorts of review one might
> undertake: if you're an editor or beta reader, when you review a book, yo=
u
> can engage with the author and suggest ways in which the book seems flawe=
d
> and can be improved; on the other hand, if you're a columnist, the book i=
s
> already published, and the only thing you can do is recommend whether the
> book is worth buying and reading or not.
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
> If you're asking for the first sort of review, for that to be a success,
> you need an author or community that's willing to engage with criticisms,
> rather than, for instance, dismissing them in advance as bikeshedding.
> Matt's already raised some specific issues in this thread that could be
> engaged with and resolved, for instance, as has Greg Sanders. I don't
> think you've engaged with either, and while James has, it's only been to
> dismiss them.
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
> If you really want this to be treated as final unchangeable proposal and
> just get a detailed "CTV+CSFS sucks, 0 stars, NACK" review that will
> inevitably be used to justify another round of "core are idiots who are
> killing bitcoin, we have to replace them now", I guess I can provide that=
;
> but I don't see a way of doing that while maintaining my
> (already pretty shaky) assumption that "this is a serious proposal by
> serious people who are willing to engage with criticism and resolve
> problems with their ideas, they're just ... a bit over-excited and have
> other demands on their time right now I guess".
>=20
>=20
>=20
> Cheers,
> aj
>=20
>=20
>=20
> --
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> https://groups.google.com/d/topic/bitcoindev/KJF6A55DPJ8/unsubscribe ). T=
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> unsubscribe from this group and all its topics, send an email to bitcoind=
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/
> aEvC_zT3TEsjxc9o%40erisian. com. au (
> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/bitcoindev/aEvC_zT3TEsjxc9o%40erisian.c=
om.au
> ).
>=20
>=20
>

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--e65ecab173ac2cf0938d001e20f4e116f54e448a624b8a1bddf7465a8b6b
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"

<html><head></head><body><div><div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div cla=
ss=3D""><blockquote style=3D"background-image: -webkit-linear-gradient(left=
, rgb(237, 237, 237) 75%, rgb(237, 237, 237) 75%);background-size: 1px 1px;=
background-position: left;background-repeat: repeat-y;padding: 0 0 0 20px;"=
 class=3D""><div class=3D"">=E2=80=8B<span style=3D"text-decoration-color:i=
nitial;text-decoration-style:initial;text-decoration-thickness:initial;font=
-weight:400;" class=3D"">I think the easy way to do this is to expect both =
an implementation of the features in question, and an interesting MVP/demo =
of how those features can be used in practice. You then draw the line betwe=
en a collection of features that&#39;s implemented and has useful demos, ve=
rsus ones that aren&#39;t implemented or don&#39;t yet have interesting dem=
os.</span><br/></div></blockquote><blockquote style=3D"background-image: -w=
ebkit-linear-gradient(left, rgb(237, 237, 237) 75%, rgb(237, 237, 237) 75%)=
;background-size: 1px 1px;background-position: left;background-repeat: repe=
at-y;padding: 0 0 0 20px;" class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D"">=E2=
=80=8B....<br/></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D"">=E2=80=8B....<br=
/></div></div></blockquote><blockquote style=3D"background-image: -webkit-l=
inear-gradient(left, rgb(237, 237, 237) 75%, rgb(237, 237, 237) 75%);backgr=
ound-size: 1px 1px;background-position: left;background-repeat: repeat-y;pa=
dding: 0 0 0 20px;" class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D"">=E2=80=8B<sp=
an style=3D"text-decoration-color:initial;text-decoration-style:initial;tex=
t-decoration-thickness:initial;font-weight:400;" class=3D"">(b) there has b=
een huge resistance to the idea of implementing demos of useful things on t=
op of proposed features when that&#39;s brought up as something people migh=
t expect to see prior to feature activation</span><br/></div></div></blockq=
uote><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><br/></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><br/></div></div><div class=3D"">After discussing this further w=
ith Matt Corallo in another thread, I find myself agreeing with this perspe=
ctive. It makes sense to require both actual implementation and convincing =
demonstrations as a way to move forward. However, creating these demonstrat=
ions is not an easy task. Although there are already written explanations f=
or CTV + CSFS, the response to those efforts has left many supporters of th=
ese changes feeling unsure. They=E2=80=99re not confident that putting in m=
ore time and resources will lead to real progress.<br/></div><div class=3D"=
"><br/></div><div class=3D"">The situation seems to split into two distinct=
 groups. First, there are the smaller Bitcoin-focused teams=C2=A0(many of w=
hom we know personally) that are resource constrained. These teams could le=
verage covenants in innovative ways, but they=E2=80=99re operating on tight=
 budgets. For them, participating in this process can=E2=80=99t be a leap o=
f faith; they need more assurance that their efforts won=E2=80=99t be in va=
in, especially given how long CTV (now with=C2=A0CSFS) has been in discussi=
on (6 years!). As Tiero=C2=A0from ArkLabs put it: &#34;<span class=3D"r-18u=
37iz"><a style=3D"font-weight:inherit;font-style:inherit;text-decoration-co=
lor:initial;text-decoration-style:initial;text-decoration-thickness:initial=
;text-decoration-line:none;color:rgb(29, 155, 240);" class=3D"css-1jxf684 r=
-bcqeeo r-1ttztb7 r-qvutc0 r-poiln3 r-1loqt21" role=3D"link" href=3D"https:=
//x.com/ArkLabsHQ" dir=3D"ltr" target=3D"_blank" rel=3D"noopener noreferrer=
">@ArkLabsHQ</a>=C2=A0</span><span style=3D"background-color: rgba(0, 0, 0,=
 0); color: rgb(15, 20, 25);" class=3D"">might not even exist by the time a=
 soft fork is implemented.&#34;</span><br/></div><div class=3D""><br/></div=
><div class=3D"">On the other hand, there are the large-scale custodians wi=
th significant resources at their disposal. These organizations could theor=
etically drive adoption, but even for them, the uncertainty around activati=
on makes it a risky bet. Instead, they=E2=80=99ve opted for more predictabl=
e solutions, like establishing Trust companies, which provide legal guarant=
ees and protections such as bankruptcy remoteness. While this approach is c=
ostly and time-intensive, it=E2=80=99s seen as a safer and more reliable pa=
th. We&#39;ve already watched major players like NYDIG, BitGo, and ZeroHash=
 go this route.<br/></div><div class=3D""><br/></div><div class=3D"">As a r=
esult, we=E2=80=99re in a tough spot. Those with the resources to contribut=
e are prioritizing legal frameworks over engineering solutions, while small=
er teams that could truly benefit from CTV are holding back to avoid jeopar=
dizing their survival.<br/></div><div class=3D""><br/></div><blockquote sty=
le=3D"background-image: -webkit-linear-gradient(left, rgb(237, 237, 237) 75=
%, rgb(237, 237, 237) 75%);background-size: 1px 1px;background-position: le=
ft;background-repeat: repeat-y;padding: 0 0 0 20px;" class=3D""><div class=
=3D"">=E2=80=8B<span style=3D"text-decoration-color:initial;text-decoration=
-style:initial;text-decoration-thickness:initial;font-weight:400;" class=3D=
"">From my perspective, the CTV discussion has missed important steps, and =
instead of those steps being taken, advocates have been attempting to use p=
ublic pressure to force adoption on an &#34;accelerated timeline&#34; prett=
y much continuously for at least three years now. I&#39;ve tried to help CT=
V advocates take the steps I believe they&#39;ve missed, but it&#39;s mostl=
y resulted in silence or insults rather than anything constructive.</span><=
br/></div></blockquote><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><br/></div></div><di=
v class=3D"">I went through the Bitcoin forking guide in detail and found i=
t both impressive and incredibly useful. I=E2=80=99ve even put together a c=
hecklist inspired by it, which I=E2=80=99m actively using to ensure I=E2=80=
=99m covering every step thoroughly. This ties into the industry survey I m=
entioned earlier (something I=E2=80=99m genuinely excited about). <br/></di=
v><div class=3D""><br/></div><div class=3D"">I=E2=80=99ve tried reaching ou=
t a few times via delving and Twitter DMs to get your feedback but haven=E2=
=80=99t heard back yet (I don&#39;t have your telegram or signal!). Since y=
ou seem open to sharing input here, I=E2=80=99d love to hear your thoughts =
on my approach. Your perspective would mean a lot! <br/></div><div class=3D=
""><br/></div><div class=3D""><br/></div><blockquote style=3D"background-im=
age: -webkit-linear-gradient(left, rgb(237, 237, 237) 75%, rgb(237, 237, 23=
7) 75%);background-size: 1px 1px;background-position: left;background-repea=
t: repeat-y;padding: 0 0 0 20px;" class=3D""><div class=3D""><span style=3D=
"text-decoration-color:initial;text-decoration-style:initial;text-decoratio=
n-thickness:initial;font-weight:400;" class=3D"">=E2=80=8BMatt&#39;s alread=
y raised some specific issues in this thread that could be engaged with and=
 resolved</span><br/></div></blockquote><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><br=
/></div><div class=3D"">I broke out in a private email thread to address hi=
s concerns. I&#39;m bringing the core of our issues back to the main thread=
 here (at the top of this=C2=A0email).<br/></div></div><div class=3D""><br/=
></div><div class=3D"">Thank you,<br/></div><div class=3D"">Harsha, sometim=
es known as arshbot<br/></div></div><br/><div class=3D"sh-signature"><div c=
lass=3D"gmail_signature"><br/></div></div></div><br/><div class=3D"sh-quote=
d-content"><div class=3D""><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Fri, Jun 13, 2025 =
at 2:19 AM, Anthony Towns <span dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"">&lt;<a href=3D"mailt=
o:aj@erisian.com.au" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"">aj@erisian.com.au</a>&gt;=
</span> wrote:<br/><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 =
.8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div class=3D"gmail_extra=
"><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><p class=3D"">On Tue, Jun 10, 2025 at 01:23:06=
PM +0000, Andrew Poelstra wrote:
<br/></p><blockquote class=3D""><blockquote class=3D""><p class=3D"">
The usual purpose of an open letter is to generate public pressure against
the target (otherwise, if you didn&#39;t want to generate public pressure, =
you
would send a private letter).
<br/></p></blockquote><p class=3D"">
There isn&#39;t really any place to send a &#34;private&#34; letter.
<br/></p></blockquote><p class=3D"">
Here&#39;s one way to get a list of such places:
<br/></p><p class=3D"">
$ git log src/script/ | grep ^Author: | head -n10000 | sort | uniq -c | sor=
t -rn | head -n20
<br/></p><p class=3D"">
I feel pretty sure you&#39;ve got my telegram contact info too, if nothing
else.
<br/></p><blockquote class=3D""><p class=3D"">
And of course I could email specific developers personally, but there
are no individuals that it makes sense to target, because this isn&#39;t an
individual problem. It&#39;s an incentive problem.
<br/></p></blockquote><p class=3D"">
I think if you&#39;re looking at it as &#34;targeting&#34; people, that&#39=
;s probably
not going to be very constructive. It certainly comes across as an
implied threat.
<br/></p><blockquote class=3D""><p class=3D"">
My goal was to start exactly this discussion, by talking about the role
Core plays in this ecosystem and pointing to (in my view) the incentive
problems that are getting in the way of that role.
<br/></p></blockquote><p class=3D"">
I&#39;ve written my perspective of what core&#39;s role in this should be
<br/>
[0], and am happy to discuss that further if there&#39;s some way in which
that approach falls apart. The approach proposed there doesn&#39;t require
pressuring core for support.
</p><p class=3D"">
[0] <a target=3D"_blank" rel=3D"noopener noreferrer" href=3D"https://delvin=
gbitcoin.org/t/bitcoin-forking-guide/1451" class=3D"">https:/<wbr/>/<wbr/>d=
elvingbitcoin.<wbr/>org/<wbr/>t/<wbr/>bitcoin-forking-guide/<wbr/>1451</a>
<br/></p><p class=3D"">
From my perspective, the CTV discussion has missed important steps,
and instead of those steps being taken, advocates have been attempting
to use public pressure to force adoption on an &#34;accelerated timeline&#3=
4;
pretty much continuously for at least three years now. I&#39;ve tried to he=
lp
CTV advocates take the steps I believe they&#39;ve missed, but it&#39;s mos=
tly
resulted in silence or insults rather than anything constructive. At
least from where I sit, this is just creating incentive problems, not
solving them.
<br/></p><blockquote class=3D""><p class=3D"">
I apologize if it comes off as an ultimatum -- it has a timeline, but
one for a &#34;respectful ask&#34; for &#34;review and integration&#34; and=
 no specified
consquences
<br/></p></blockquote><p class=3D"">
Asking for &#34;integration&#34; as well as review presupposes the outcome =
of the
review, which doesn&#39;t come across as very respectful of the reviewers&#=
39;
opinions, for what it&#39;s worth.
<br/></p><p class=3D"">
To analogise to book publishing, there are two sorts of review one might
undertake: if you&#39;re an editor or beta reader, when you review a book,
you can engage with the author and suggest ways in which the book seems
flawed and can be improved; on the other hand, if you&#39;re a columnist,
the book is already published, and the only thing you can do is recommend
whether the book is worth buying and reading or not.
<br/></p><p class=3D"">
If you&#39;re asking for the first sort of review, for that to be a
success, you need an author or community that&#39;s willing to engage with
criticisms, rather than, for instance, dismissing them in advance as
bikeshedding. Matt&#39;s already raised some specific issues in this thread
that could be engaged with and resolved, for instance, as has Greg
Sanders. I don&#39;t think you&#39;ve engaged with either, and while James =
has,
it&#39;s only been to dismiss them.
<br/></p><p class=3D"">
If you really want this to be treated as final unchangeable proposal
and just get a detailed &#34;CTV+CSFS sucks, 0 stars, NACK&#34; review that
will inevitably be used to justify another round of &#34;core are idiots
who are killing bitcoin, we have to replace them now&#34;, I guess I can
provide that; but I don&#39;t see a way of doing that while maintaining my
<br/>
(already pretty shaky) assumption that &#34;this is a serious proposal by
serious people who are willing to engage with criticism and resolve
problems with their ideas, they&#39;re just ... a bit over-excited and have
other demands on their time right now I guess&#34;.
</p><p class=3D"">
Cheers,
<br/>
aj
</p><p class=3D"">
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