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From: CryptAxe <cryptaxe@gmail.com>
Date: Tue, 10 Oct 2017 13:49:20 -0700
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To: Bitcoin Protocol Discussion <bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org>,
Tao Effect <contact@taoeffect.com>
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Subject: Re: [bitcoin-dev] Generalized sharding protocol for decentralized
scaling without Miners owning our BTC
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You could technically call myself and Chris 'core developers'. You don't
get to have a fixed rate of Bitcoin and a second way to mint coins at the
same time.
On Oct 10, 2017 1:46 PM, "Tao Effect via bitcoin-dev" <
bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org> wrote:
> What?
>
> That is not correct.
>
> There is a fixed amount of Bitcoin, as I said.
>
> The only difference is what chain it is on.
>
> It is precisely because there is a fixed amount that when you
> burn-to-withdraw you mint on another chain.
>
> I will not respond to any more emails unless they=E2=80=99re from core de=
velopers.
> Gotta run.
>
> --
> Sent from my mobile device.
> Please do not email me anything that you are not comfortable also sharing
> with the NSA.
>
> > On Oct 10, 2017, at 1:23 PM, James Hudon <jameshudon@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > You're asking for newly minted bitcoin to go to you but you burned the
> bitcoin used in the peg. You're effectively losing your money and then
> stealing from the miners to gain it back. The miners had to issue your
> amount of bitcoin 2 times (once for your original bitcoin, again to make
> you whole). Why would they agree to this?
> > --
> > hudon
> >
> >> On Oct 10, 2017, at 13:13, Tao Effect via bitcoin-dev <
> bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org> wrote:
> >>
> >> It would not change the number of Bitcoins in existence.
> >>
> >> --
> >> Sent from my mobile device.
> >> Please do not email me anything that you are not comfortable also
> sharing with the NSA.
> >>
> >>> On Oct 10, 2017, at 12:50 PM, CryptAxe <cryptaxe@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>>
> >>> Your method would change the number of Bitcoins in existence. Why?
> >>>
> >>> On Oct 10, 2017 12:47 PM, "Tao Effect via bitcoin-dev" <
> bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org> wrote:
> >>> Is that what passes for a technical argument these days? Sheesh.
> >>>
> >>> Whereas in Drivechain users are forced to give up their coins to a
> single group for whatever sidechains they interact with, the generic
> sharding algo lets them (1) keep their coins, (2) trust whatever group th=
ey
> want to trust (the miners of the various sidechains).
> >>>
> >>> Drivechain offers objectively worse security.
> >>>
> >>> --
> >>> Sent from my mobile device.
> >>> Please do not email me anything that you are not comfortable also
> sharing with the NSA.
> >>>
> >>>> On Oct 10, 2017, at 8:09 AM, Paul Sztorc via bitcoin-dev <
> bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org> wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>> I think this response speaks for itself.
> >>>>
> >>>>> On 10/10/2017 10:09 AM, Tao Effect wrote:
> >>>>> Hi Paul,
> >>>>>
> >>>>> I thought it was clear, but apparently you are getting stuck on the
> semantics of the word "burn".
> >>>>>
> >>>>> The "burning" applies to the original coins you had.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> When you transfer them back, you get newly minted coins, equivalent
> to the amount you "burned" on the chain you're transferring from =E2=80=
=95 as
> stated in the OP.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> If you don't like the word "burn", pick another one.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> --
> >>>>> Please do not email me anything that you are not comfortable also
> sharing with the NSA.
> >>>>>
> >>>>>> On Oct 10, 2017, at 4:20 AM, Paul Sztorc <truthcoin@gmail.com>
> wrote:
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Haha, no. Because you "burned" the coins.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> On Oct 10, 2017 1:20 AM, "Tao Effect" <contact@taoeffect.com>
> wrote:
> >>>>>> Paul,
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> It's a two-way peg.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> There's nothing preventing transfers back to the main chain.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> They work in the exact same manner.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Cheers,
> >>>>>> Greg
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> --
> >>>>>> Please do not email me anything that you are not comfortable also
> sharing with the NSA.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>> On Oct 9, 2017, at 6:39 PM, Paul Sztorc <truthcoin@gmail.com>
> wrote:
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> That is only a one-way peg, not a two-way.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> In fact, that is exactly what drivechain does, if one chooses
> parameters for the drivechain that make it impossible for any side-to-mai=
n
> transfer to succeed.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> One-way pegs have strong first-mover disadvantages.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Paul
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> On Oct 9, 2017 9:24 PM, "Tao Effect via bitcoin-dev" <
> bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org> wrote:
> >>>>>>> Dear list,
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> In previous arguments over Drivechain (and Drivechain-like
> proposals) I promised that better scaling proposals =E2=80=95 that do not=
sacrifice
> Bitcoin's security =E2=80=95 would come along.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> I planned to do a detailed writeup, but have decided to just send
> off this email with what I have, because I'm unlikely to have time to wri=
te
> up a detailed proposal.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> The idea is very simple (and by no means novel*), and I'm sure
> others have mentioned either exactly it, or similar ideas (e.g. burning
> coins) before.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> This is a generic sharding protocol for all blockchains, includin=
g
> Bitcoin.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Users simply say: "My coins on Chain A are going to be sent to
> Chain B".
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Then they burn the coins on Chain A, and create a minting
> transaction on Chain B. The details of how to ensure that coins do not ge=
t
> lost needs to be worked out, but I'm fairly certain the folks on this lis=
t
> can figure out those details.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> - Thin clients, nodes, and miners, can all very easily verify tha=
t
> said action took place, and therefore accept the "newly minted" coins on =
B
> as valid.
> >>>>>>> - Users client software now also knows where to look for the othe=
r
> coins (if for some reason it needs to).
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> This doesn't even need much modification to the Bitcoin protocol
> as most of the verification is done client-side.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> It is fully decentralized, and there's no need to give our
> ownership of our coins to miners to get scale.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> My sincere apologies if this has been brought up before (in which
> case, I would be very grateful for a link to the proposal).
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Cheers,
> >>>>>>> Greg Slepak
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> * This idea is similar in spirit to Interledger.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> --
> >>>>>>> Please do not email me anything that you are not comfortable also
> sharing with the NSA.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________
> >>>>>>> bitcoin-dev mailing list
> >>>>>>> bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org
> >>>>>>> https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> _______________________________________________
> >>>> bitcoin-dev mailing list
> >>>> bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org
> >>>> https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev
> >>>
> >>> _______________________________________________
> >>> bitcoin-dev mailing list
> >>> bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org
> >>> https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev
> >>>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> bitcoin-dev mailing list
> >> bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org
> >> https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev
> >
>
> _______________________________________________
> bitcoin-dev mailing list
> bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org
> https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev
>
--001a114430780a718b055b3771cf
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
<div dir=3D"auto">You could technically call myself and Chris 'core dev=
elopers'. You don't get to have a fixed rate of Bitcoin and a secon=
d way to mint coins at the same time.=C2=A0</div><div class=3D"gmail_extra"=
><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Oct 10, 2017 1:46 PM, "Tao Effect v=
ia bitcoin-dev" <<a href=3D"mailto:bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundatio=
n.org">bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org</a>> wrote:<br type=3D"attr=
ibution"><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;borde=
r-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">What?<br>
<br>
That is not correct.<br>
<br>
There is a fixed amount of Bitcoin, as I said.<br>
<br>
The only difference is what chain it is on.<br>
<br>
It is precisely because there is a fixed amount that when you burn-to-withd=
raw you mint on another chain.<br>
<br>
I will not respond to any more emails unless they=E2=80=99re from core deve=
lopers. Gotta run.<br>
<br>
--<br>
Sent from my mobile device.<br>
Please do not email me anything that you are not comfortable also sharing w=
ith the NSA.<br>
<br>
> On Oct 10, 2017, at 1:23 PM, James Hudon <<a href=3D"mailto:jameshu=
don@gmail.com">jameshudon@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br>
><br>
> You're asking for newly minted bitcoin to go to you but you burned=
the bitcoin used in the peg. You're effectively losing your money and =
then stealing from the miners to gain it back. The miners had to issue your=
amount of bitcoin 2 times (once for your original bitcoin, again to make y=
ou whole). Why would they agree to this?<br>
> --<br>
> hudon<br>
><br>
>> On Oct 10, 2017, at 13:13, Tao Effect via bitcoin-dev <<a href=
=3D"mailto:bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org">bitcoin-dev@lists.<wbr>li=
nuxfoundation.org</a>> wrote:<br>
>><br>
>> It would not change the number of Bitcoins in existence.<br>
>><br>
>> --<br>
>> Sent from my mobile device.<br>
>> Please do not email me anything that you are not comfortable also =
sharing with the NSA.<br>
>><br>
>>> On Oct 10, 2017, at 12:50 PM, CryptAxe <<a href=3D"mailto:c=
ryptaxe@gmail.com">cryptaxe@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br>
>>><br>
>>> Your method would change the number of Bitcoins in existence. =
Why?<br>
>>><br>
>>> On Oct 10, 2017 12:47 PM, "Tao Effect via bitcoin-dev&quo=
t; <<a href=3D"mailto:bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org">bitcoin-dev=
@lists.<wbr>linuxfoundation.org</a>> wrote:<br>
>>> Is that what passes for a technical argument these days? Shees=
h.<br>
>>><br>
>>> Whereas in Drivechain users are forced to give up their coins =
to a single group for whatever sidechains they interact with, the generic s=
harding algo lets them (1) keep their coins, (2) trust whatever group they =
want to trust (the miners of the various sidechains).<br>
>>><br>
>>> Drivechain offers objectively worse security.<br>
>>><br>
>>> --<br>
>>> Sent from my mobile device.<br>
>>> Please do not email me anything that you are not comfortable a=
lso sharing with the NSA.<br>
>>><br>
>>>> On Oct 10, 2017, at 8:09 AM, Paul Sztorc via bitcoin-dev &=
lt;<a href=3D"mailto:bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org">bitcoin-dev@lis=
ts.<wbr>linuxfoundation.org</a>> wrote:<br>
>>>><br>
>>>> I think this response speaks for itself.<br>
>>>><br>
>>>>> On 10/10/2017 10:09 AM, Tao Effect wrote:<br>
>>>>> Hi Paul,<br>
>>>>><br>
>>>>> I thought it was clear, but apparently you are getting=
stuck on the semantics of the word "burn".<br>
>>>>><br>
>>>>> The "burning" applies to the original coins =
you had.<br>
>>>>><br>
>>>>> When you transfer them back, you get newly minted coin=
s, equivalent to the amount you "burned" on the chain you're =
transferring from =E2=80=95 as stated in the OP.<br>
>>>>><br>
>>>>> If you don't like the word "burn", pick =
another one.<br>
>>>>><br>
>>>>> --<br>
>>>>> Please do not email me anything that you are not comfo=
rtable also sharing with the NSA.<br>
>>>>><br>
>>>>>> On Oct 10, 2017, at 4:20 AM, Paul Sztorc <<a hr=
ef=3D"mailto:truthcoin@gmail.com">truthcoin@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br>
>>>>>><br>
>>>>>> Haha, no. Because you "burned" the coins=
.<br>
>>>>>><br>
>>>>>> On Oct 10, 2017 1:20 AM, "Tao Effect" &l=
t;<a href=3D"mailto:contact@taoeffect.com">contact@taoeffect.com</a>> wr=
ote:<br>
>>>>>> Paul,<br>
>>>>>><br>
>>>>>> It's a two-way peg.<br>
>>>>>><br>
>>>>>> There's nothing preventing transfers back to t=
he main chain.<br>
>>>>>><br>
>>>>>> They work in the exact same manner.<br>
>>>>>><br>
>>>>>> Cheers,<br>
>>>>>> Greg<br>
>>>>>><br>
>>>>>> --<br>
>>>>>> Please do not email me anything that you are not c=
omfortable also sharing with the NSA.<br>
>>>>>><br>
>>>>>>> On Oct 9, 2017, at 6:39 PM, Paul Sztorc <<a=
href=3D"mailto:truthcoin@gmail.com">truthcoin@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br>
>>>>>>><br>
>>>>>>> That is only a one-way peg, not a two-way.<br>
>>>>>>><br>
>>>>>>> In fact, that is exactly what drivechain does,=
if one chooses parameters for the drivechain that make it impossible for a=
ny side-to-main transfer to succeed.<br>
>>>>>>><br>
>>>>>>> One-way pegs have strong first-mover disadvant=
ages.<br>
>>>>>>><br>
>>>>>>> Paul<br>
>>>>>>><br>
>>>>>>> On Oct 9, 2017 9:24 PM, "Tao Effect via b=
itcoin-dev" <<a href=3D"mailto:bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.or=
g">bitcoin-dev@lists.<wbr>linuxfoundation.org</a>> wrote:<br>
>>>>>>> Dear list,<br>
>>>>>>><br>
>>>>>>> In previous arguments over Drivechain (and Dri=
vechain-like proposals) I promised that better scaling proposals =E2=80=95 =
that do not sacrifice Bitcoin's security =E2=80=95 would come along.<br=
>
>>>>>>><br>
>>>>>>> I planned to do a detailed writeup, but have d=
ecided to just send off this email with what I have, because I'm unlike=
ly to have time to write up a detailed proposal.<br>
>>>>>>><br>
>>>>>>> The idea is very simple (and by no means novel=
*), and I'm sure others have mentioned either exactly it, or similar id=
eas (e.g. burning coins) before.<br>
>>>>>>><br>
>>>>>>> This is a generic sharding protocol for all bl=
ockchains, including Bitcoin.<br>
>>>>>>><br>
>>>>>>> Users simply say: "My coins on Chain A ar=
e going to be sent to Chain B".<br>
>>>>>>><br>
>>>>>>> Then they burn the coins on Chain A, and creat=
e a minting transaction on Chain B. The details of how to ensure that coins=
do not get lost needs to be worked out, but I'm fairly certain the fol=
ks on this list can figure out those details.<br>
>>>>>>><br>
>>>>>>> - Thin clients, nodes, and miners, can all ver=
y easily verify that said action took place, and therefore accept the "=
;newly minted" coins on B as valid.<br>
>>>>>>> - Users client software now also knows where t=
o look for the other coins (if for some reason it needs to).<br>
>>>>>>><br>
>>>>>>> This doesn't even need much modification t=
o the Bitcoin protocol as most of the verification is done client-side.<br>
>>>>>>><br>
>>>>>>> It is fully decentralized, and there's no =
need to give our ownership of our coins to miners to get scale.<br>
>>>>>>><br>
>>>>>>> My sincere apologies if this has been brought =
up before (in which case, I would be very grateful for a link to the propos=
al).<br>
>>>>>>><br>
>>>>>>> Cheers,<br>
>>>>>>> Greg Slepak<br>
>>>>>>><br>
>>>>>>> * This idea is similar in spirit to Interledge=
r.<br>
>>>>>>><br>
>>>>>>> --<br>
>>>>>>> Please do not email me anything that you are n=
ot comfortable also sharing with the NSA.<br>
>>>>>>><br>
>>>>>>><br>
>>>>>>> ______________________________<wbr>___________=
______<br>
>>>>>>> bitcoin-dev mailing list<br>
>>>>>>> <a href=3D"mailto:bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfound=
ation.org">bitcoin-dev@lists.<wbr>linuxfoundation.org</a><br>
>>>>>>> <a href=3D"https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/m=
ailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://l=
ists.linuxfoundation.<wbr>org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-<wbr>dev</a><br>
>>>>>>><br>
>>>>>>><br>
>>>>>><br>
>>>>><br>
>>>><br>
>>>> ______________________________<wbr>_________________<br>
>>>> bitcoin-dev mailing list<br>
>>>> <a href=3D"mailto:bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org">b=
itcoin-dev@lists.<wbr>linuxfoundation.org</a><br>
>>>> <a href=3D"https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listi=
nfo/bitcoin-dev" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://lists.linuxfo=
undation.<wbr>org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-<wbr>dev</a><br>
>>><br>
>>> ______________________________<wbr>_________________<br>
>>> bitcoin-dev mailing list<br>
>>> <a href=3D"mailto:bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org">bitco=
in-dev@lists.<wbr>linuxfoundation.org</a><br>
>>> <a href=3D"https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/=
bitcoin-dev" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://lists.linuxfounda=
tion.<wbr>org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-<wbr>dev</a><br>
>>><br>
>> ______________________________<wbr>_________________<br>
>> bitcoin-dev mailing list<br>
>> <a href=3D"mailto:bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org">bitcoin-d=
ev@lists.<wbr>linuxfoundation.org</a><br>
>> <a href=3D"https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitc=
oin-dev" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://lists.linuxfoundation=
.<wbr>org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-<wbr>dev</a><br>
><br>
<br>
______________________________<wbr>_________________<br>
bitcoin-dev mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org">bitcoin-dev@lists.=
<wbr>linuxfoundation.org</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev" =
rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://lists.linuxfoundation.<wbr>org=
/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-<wbr>dev</a><br>
</blockquote></div></div>
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