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From: Bram Cohen <bram@chia.net>
Date: Thu, 7 Jul 2022 18:47:33 -0700
Message-ID: <CAHUJnBCHZ7+6B83xDOaSc+EEpVe2x4VzmZUTQ3Z7FhmtMQFbjA@mail.gmail.com>
To: Pavol Rusnak <stick@satoshilabs.com>
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Cc: Bitcoin Protocol Discussion <bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org>
Subject: Re: [bitcoin-dev] No Order Mnemonic
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Part of the rules of my challenge is that the 'new' words need to be in the
same pool as the 'old' words, so any ordering is okay. Without that
requirement it's mathematically very straightforward.

On Thu, Jul 7, 2022 at 10:52 AM Pavol Rusnak <stick@satoshilabs.com> wrote:

> There is. Just encode the index of permutation used to scramble the
> otherwise sorted list. For 12 words you need to store 12! = ~32 bits so 3
> words should be enough.
>
> Repetitions make this more difficult, though.
>
> On Thu 7. 7. 2022 at 19:41, Bram Cohen via bitcoin-dev <
> bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org> wrote:
>
>> On Thu, Jul 7, 2022 at 7:43 AM Anton Shevchenko via bitcoin-dev <
>> bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org> wrote:
>>
>>> I made a python implementation for a different mnemonic encoding. The
>>> encoding requires user to remember words but not the order of those words.
>>> The code is open (MIT license) at https://github.com/sancoder/noomnem
>>
>>
>> Thanks Anton. There's an interesting mathematical question of whether
>> it's possible to make a code like this which always uses the BIP-39 words
>> for the same key as part of its encoding, basically adding a few words as
>> error correction in case the order is lost or confused. If the BIP-39
>> contains a duplicate you can add an extra word.
>> _______________________________________________
>> bitcoin-dev mailing list
>> bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org
>> https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev
>>
> --
> Best Regards / S pozdravom,
>
> Pavol "stick" Rusnak
> Co-Founder, SatoshiLabs
>

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<div dir=3D"ltr">Part of the rules of my challenge is that the &#39;new&#39=
; words need to be in the same pool as the &#39;old&#39; words, so any orde=
ring is okay. Without that requirement it&#39;s mathematically very straigh=
tforward.</div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gma=
il_attr">On Thu, Jul 7, 2022 at 10:52 AM Pavol Rusnak &lt;<a href=3D"mailto=
:stick@satoshilabs.com">stick@satoshilabs.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br></div><bloc=
kquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:=
1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"auto">There is. Ju=
st encode the index of permutation used to scramble the otherwise sorted li=
st. For 12 words you need to store 12! =3D ~32 bits so 3 words should be en=
ough.=C2=A0</div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto">Repetitions =
make this more difficult, though.=C2=A0</div><div><br><div class=3D"gmail_q=
uote"><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Thu 7. 7. 2022 at 19:41, Bra=
m Cohen via bitcoin-dev &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfounda=
tion.org" target=3D"_blank">bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org</a>&gt; w=
rote:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0p=
x 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir=
=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr">On Thu, Jul 7, 2022 at 7:43 AM Anton Shevchenko v=
ia bitcoin-dev &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org"=
 target=3D"_blank">bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org</a>&gt; wrote:<br>=
</div><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D=
"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-le=
ft:1ex">I made a python implementation for a different mnemonic encoding. T=
he encoding requires user to remember words but not the order of those word=
s.<br>
The code is open (MIT license) at <a href=3D"https://github.com/sancoder/no=
omnem" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://github.com/sancoder/noo=
mnem</a></blockquote><div><br></div><div>Thanks Anton. There&#39;s an inter=
esting mathematical question of whether it&#39;s possible to make a code li=
ke this which always uses the BIP-39 words for the same key as part of its =
encoding, basically adding a few words as error correction in case the orde=
r is lost or confused. If the BIP-39 contains a duplicate you can add an ex=
tra word.</div></div></div>
_______________________________________________<br>
bitcoin-dev mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org" target=3D"_blank">=
bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev" =
rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mail=
man/listinfo/bitcoin-dev</a><br>
</blockquote></div></div>-- <br><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div><div=
 dir=3D"ltr"><div></div><div>Best Regards / S pozdravom,</div><div><br></di=
v><div>Pavol &quot;stick&quot; Rusnak</div><div>Co-Founder, SatoshiLabs</di=
v></div></div></div></div>
</blockquote></div>

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