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From: Garlo Nicon <garlonicon@gmail.com>
Date: Fri, 9 May 2025 15:07:48 +0200
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Subject: Re: [bitcoindev] Re: Unbreaking testnet4
To: Saint Wenhao <saintwenhao@gmail.com>
Cc: Greg Maxwell <gmaxwell@gmail.com>, 
	Bitcoin Development Mailing List <bitcoindev@googlegroups.com>
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> Hard fork in an ultramassive premine, as large as possible but what stays
with existing value overflow logic. (so maybe an additional 21 million
testnet btc?).

Why hard-forking anything? The starting difficulty is set to 1, and it
raises to 4 almost instantly, when testnet creators are mining the first
coins. Which means, that difficulty 1 is ridiculously easy to work with,
when you have any ASICs. If you combine it with the idea of fake
timestamps, then you can produce a really long initial chain, which will
start in 2009, and up to 2025, it will produce almost the same amount of
blocks as mainnet. All of that can have a soft-forked-in differences
between blocks of 10 minutes, after which you can bring the real
timestamps, and raise the difficulty to the proper level.

Which means, that instead of "premine", you can use "ninja-mine", and
achieve pretty much the same end result.

> In practice, trading will start, when the first version of the official
wallet will be released.

In that case, developers can generate some artificial chain with faked
timestamps, then mine some stronger blocks on top of that, and then release
a client with such changes. No changing of coins limits needed, and
ninja-mine is better than premine, because you wouldn't need to change the
code that much, but only eventually put a checkpoint, where you would want
to have a "genesis" block, for example at height 900,000, with some
coinbase message, timestamped with some hash from the mainnet.

wt., 6 maj 2025 o 17:25 Saint Wenhao <saintwenhao@gmail.com> napisa=C5=82(a=
):

> > Some believed that resetting alone would discourage the conduct,
>
> I wonder, why many people keep saying "reset", when in practice, the old
> network is just "abandoned", and nothing is really "resetted". We would
> have a true reset, if a new testnet would lead to the full chain
> reorganization of the old chain. And this thing never happened, all
> previous testnets were just abandoned, as they were, and there were just
> not enough people, willing to keep old networks alive.
>
> > Hard fork in an ultramassive premine
>
> Well, if testnet4 will be "fixed" by doing a hard-fork on top of existing
> chain, then it would be equivalent to releasing testnet5 with "premine" o=
f
> all testnet4 blocks.
>
> > so maybe an additional 21 million testnet btc?
>
> Using doublings, instead of halvings, is future-proof. Because then, if
> someone will continue using such test network forever, then later, it wou=
ld
> release 21 million coins per block (which would be roughly equivalent to
> having a superchain, where you can peg one altcoin per 10 minutes).
>
> > if someone starts trading tnbct for money, whomever has the premine
> wallet should feel feel to sell into it what they can
>
> In practice, trading will start, when the first version of the official
> wallet will be released. It was the case in testnet4: when it was possibl=
e
> to mine new coins, only when you created your own binary from the source
> code, then there were only devs, and some skilled users. However, when it
> was officially supported in a new Core version, then it was quickly liste=
d
> on centralized exchanges, and a lot of people dumped all of their test
> coins, and walked away with real BTCs.
>
> > the custodian of the premine will use it for the betterment of Bitcoin
> development,  but if it's found that they're not-- solution is just anoth=
er
> reset
>
> Which means, that Bitcoin developers will turn into altcoin developers,
> where they will release new altcoins called "testnets", only to dump all =
of
> them, and get BTCs out of it.
>
> wt., 6 maj 2025 o 01:40 Greg Maxwell <gmaxwell@gmail.com> napisa=C5=82(a)=
:
>
>> On Tuesday, March 18, 2025 at 9:24:49=E2=80=AFPM UTC Antoine Poinsot wro=
te:
>>
>> Hi,
>> Testnet4 was rolled out a year ago to address the shortcomings of
>> testnet3. One of those shortcomings was the difficulty reset creating
>> havoc. [0] In spite of this a similar rule was adopted for testnet4. [1]=
 As
>> a result, testnet4 is similarly creating havoc. [2]
>> The goal of testnet is to mimic the Bitcoin mainnet. This is why it is
>> useful to have in addition to a more control testing environment such as
>> Signet.
>> The given rationale for a difficulty reset was to let developers
>> occasionally mine blocks on their laptop. But you cannot have your cake =
and
>> eat it too: either the network is permissionless (PoW) or you assign
>> identities and privileges to some (Signet). By trying to do both at the
>> same time testnet4 created a loophole for abuse. As a result it failed o=
n
>> both count: it neither mimics mainnet nor allows developers to mine acti=
ve
>> blocks on their laptop.
>> I propose to fix this by removing the difficulty reset rule from testnet=
4
>> through a flag day hard fork on 2026-01-01. I picked a date well in the
>> future to minimize disruption. This leaves enough time for a patch to be
>> reviewed, merged, included in the next major Bitcoin Core release,
>> backported to previous releases and adopted by the infrastructure runnin=
g
>> on testnet4. That should be enough for a test network.
>>
>>
>> Part of the root cause is violations of the gentleman's agreement to not
>> trade testnet coins for money, this results in predictable chaos with
>> people sniping the low difficulty blocks. Some believed that resetting
>> alone would discourage the conduct, but even if it had (it hadn't people
>> are selling them now) it was still likely that people would hoard up coi=
ns
>> just in case they became tradable in the future.
>>
>> There is a simple fix for this which doesn't result in an operating
>> difference from Bitcoin, just an economic one.   Hard fork in an
>> ultramassive premine, as large as possible but what stays with existing
>> value overflow logic. (so maybe an additional 21 million testnet btc?).
>>
>> This also resolves the 'actual developers can't get coins problem' and i=
f
>> someone starts trading tnbct for money, whomever has the premine wallet
>> should feel feel to sell into it what they can.  Once they run out of co=
ins
>> it'll be time for another testnet reset.
>>
>> It may just not be possible to prevent degens from trading tn coins for
>> money, -- I mean consider the altcoins that some people spend money on :=
),
>> there is basically no low bar on how crappy you can make a cryptocurrenc=
y
>> where some scammer won't try to sell it to some fool.  But what can't be
>> prevented can at least be turned into a benefit.
>>
>> Compared to things like just rigging the subsidy to continue forever--
>> that's a bigger consensus change compared to bitcoin, and I think it
>> doesn't have the right incentive surface... some of the most popular
>> altcoins have endless inflation and people still use them.  Instead you
>> want the failure mode to be "if you do trade this for money, most of the
>> profits end up going to support a developer or development, rather than
>> whatever jerk decided to trick people into paying for it". :)
>>
>> Feel free to suggest yourself as the custodian of the premine.  Or it
>> could be some anonymous party if there is a concern that they'll be
>> pestered for handouts.  There should be a general expectation that the
>> custodian of the premine will use it for the betterment of Bitcoin
>> development,  but if it's found that they're not-- solution is just anot=
her
>> reset. :)
>>
>>
>>
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<div dir=3D"ltr">&gt; Hard fork in an ultramassive premine, as large as pos=
sible but what stays with existing value overflow logic. (so maybe an addit=
ional 21 million testnet btc?).<br><br>Why hard-forking anything? The start=
ing difficulty is set to 1, and it raises to 4 almost instantly, when testn=
et creators are mining the first coins. Which means, that difficulty 1 is r=
idiculously easy to work with, when you have any ASICs. If you combine it w=
ith the idea of fake timestamps, then you can produce a really long initial=
 chain, which will start in 2009, and up to 2025, it will produce almost th=
e same amount of blocks as mainnet. All of that can have a soft-forked-in d=
ifferences between blocks of 10 minutes, after which you can bring the real=
 timestamps, and raise the difficulty to the proper level.<br><br>Which mea=
ns, that instead of &quot;premine&quot;, you can use &quot;ninja-mine&quot;=
, and achieve pretty much the same end result.<br><br>&gt; In practice, tra=
ding will start, when the first version of the official wallet will be rele=
ased.<br><br>In that case, developers can generate some artificial chain wi=
th faked timestamps, then mine some stronger blocks on top of that, and the=
n release a client with such changes. No changing of coins limits needed, a=
nd ninja-mine is better than premine, because you wouldn&#39;t need to chan=
ge the code that much, but only eventually put a checkpoint, where you woul=
d want to have a &quot;genesis&quot; block, for example at height 900,000, =
with some coinbase message, timestamped with some hash from the mainnet.</d=
iv><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote gmail_quote_container"><div dir=3D"ltr" cl=
ass=3D"gmail_attr">wt., 6 maj 2025 o 17:25=C2=A0Saint Wenhao &lt;<a href=3D=
"mailto:saintwenhao@gmail.com">saintwenhao@gmail.com</a>&gt; napisa=C5=82(a=
):<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0=
.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"l=
tr">&gt; Some believed that resetting alone would discourage the conduct,<b=
r><br>I wonder, why many people keep saying &quot;reset&quot;, when in prac=
tice, the old network is just &quot;abandoned&quot;, and nothing is really =
&quot;resetted&quot;. We would have a true reset, if a new testnet would le=
ad to the full chain reorganization of the old chain. And this thing never =
happened, all previous testnets were just abandoned, as they were, and ther=
e were just not enough people, willing to keep old networks alive.<br><br>&=
gt; Hard fork in an ultramassive premine<br><br>Well, if testnet4 will be &=
quot;fixed&quot; by doing a hard-fork on top of existing chain, then it wou=
ld be equivalent to releasing testnet5 with &quot;premine&quot; of all test=
net4 blocks.<br><br>&gt; so maybe an additional 21 million testnet btc?<br>=
<br>Using doublings, instead of halvings, is future-proof. Because then, if=
 someone will continue using such test network forever, then later, it woul=
d release 21 million coins per block (which would be roughly equivalent to =
having a superchain, where you can peg one altcoin per 10 minutes).<br><br>=
&gt; if someone starts trading tnbct for money, whomever has the premine wa=
llet should feel feel to sell into it what they can<br><br>In practice, tra=
ding will start, when the first version of the official wallet will be rele=
ased. It was the case in testnet4: when it was possible to mine new coins, =
only when you created your own binary from the source code, then there were=
 only devs, and some skilled users. However, when it was officially support=
ed in a new Core version, then it was quickly listed on centralized exchang=
es, and a lot of people dumped all of their test coins, and walked away wit=
h real BTCs.<br><br>&gt; the custodian of the premine will use it for the b=
etterment of Bitcoin development, =C2=A0but if it&#39;s found that they&#39=
;re not-- solution is just another reset<br><br>Which means, that Bitcoin d=
evelopers will turn into altcoin developers, where they will release new al=
tcoins called &quot;testnets&quot;, only to dump all of them, and get BTCs =
out of it.</div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gm=
ail_attr">wt., 6 maj 2025 o 01:40=C2=A0Greg Maxwell &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:g=
maxwell@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">gmaxwell@gmail.com</a>&gt; napisa=C5=
=82(a):<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px =
0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div><di=
v dir=3D"auto">On Tuesday, March 18, 2025 at 9:24:49=E2=80=AFPM UTC Antoine=
 Poinsot wrote:<br></div><blockquote style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;bord=
er-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div style=3D"font-fam=
ily:Arial,sans-serif;font-size:14px"><div style=3D"font-family:Arial,sans-s=
erif;font-size:14px"><div>Hi,<br>Testnet4
 was  rolled out a year ago to address the shortcomings of testnet3. One
 of those shortcomings was the difficulty reset creating havoc. [0] In=20
spite of this a similar rule was adopted for testnet4. [1] As a result,=20
testnet4 is similarly creating havoc. [2]<br>The goal of testnet is=20
to mimic the Bitcoin mainnet. This is why it is useful to have in=20
addition to a more control testing environment such as Signet.<br>The
 given rationale for a difficulty reset was to let developers=20
occasionally mine blocks on their laptop. But you cannot have your cake=20
and eat it too: either the network is permissionless (PoW) or you assign
 identities and privileges to some (Signet). By trying to do both at the
 same time testnet4 created a loophole for abuse. As a result it failed=20
on both count: it neither mimics mainnet nor allows developers to mine=20
active blocks on their laptop.<br>I propose to fix this by removing=20
the difficulty reset rule from testnet4 through a flag day hard fork on=20
2026-01-01. I picked a date well in the future to minimize disruption.=20
This leaves enough time for a patch to be reviewed, merged, included in=20
the next major Bitcoin Core release, backported to previous releases and
 adopted by the infrastructure running on testnet4. That should be=20
enough for a test network.<br></div></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div=
><div>Part of the root cause is violations of the gentleman&#39;s agreement=
 to not trade testnet coins for money, this results in predictable chaos wi=
th people sniping the low difficulty blocks. Some believed that resetting a=
lone would discourage the conduct, but even if it had (it hadn&#39;t people=
 are selling them now) it was still likely that people would hoard up coins=
 just in case they became tradable in the future.</div><div><br></div><div>=
There is a simple fix for this which doesn&#39;t result in an operating dif=
ference from Bitcoin, just an economic one.=C2=A0=C2=A0 Hard fork in an ult=
ramassive premine, as large as possible but what stays with existing value =
overflow logic. (so maybe an additional 21 million testnet btc?).</div><div=
><br></div><div>This also resolves the &#39;actual developers can&#39;t get=
 coins problem&#39; and if someone starts trading tnbct for money, whomever=
 has the premine wallet should feel feel to sell into it what they can.=C2=
=A0 Once they run out of coins it&#39;ll be time for another testnet reset.=
</div><div><br></div><div>It may just not be possible to prevent degens fro=
m trading tn coins for money, -- I mean consider the altcoins that some peo=
ple spend money on :),=C2=A0 there is basically no low bar on how crappy yo=
u can make a cryptocurrency where some scammer won&#39;t try to sell it to =
some fool.=C2=A0 But what can&#39;t be prevented can at least be turned int=
o a benefit.</div><div><br></div><div>Compared to things like just rigging =
the subsidy to continue forever-- that&#39;s a bigger consensus change comp=
ared to bitcoin, and I think it doesn&#39;t have the right incentive surfac=
e... some of the most popular altcoins have endless inflation and people st=
ill use them.=C2=A0 Instead you want the failure mode to be &quot;if you do=
 trade this for money, most of the profits end up going to support a develo=
per or development, rather than whatever jerk decided to trick people into =
paying for it&quot;. :)</div><div><br></div><div>Feel free to suggest yours=
elf as the custodian of the premine.=C2=A0 Or it could be some anonymous pa=
rty if there is a concern that they&#39;ll be pestered for handouts.=C2=A0 =
There should be a general expectation that the custodian of the premine wil=
l use it for the betterment of Bitcoin development,=C2=A0 but if it&#39;s f=
ound that they&#39;re not-- solution is just another reset. :)</div><div><b=
r></div><div><br></div><div><br></div></div>

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</blockquote></div>

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FJfrgHv8NnKsjmoVS8LLVU78zjKDw%40mail.gmail.com</a>.<br>
</blockquote></div>

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