diff options
| author | Billy Tetrud <billy.tetrud@gmail.com> | 2022-06-07 23:05:33 -0500 |
|---|---|---|
| committer | bitcoindev <bitcoindev@gnusha.org> | 2022-06-08 04:05:50 +0000 |
| commit | 8fd15df12ea5c1f378010ed0b0d32fde8dd2ab7d (patch) | |
| tree | a4dc09cdc41ff00c60347b3159168f2ad84aadb5 /a1/4361ceb192ad13938857d3f6cc44aefdc9e410 | |
| parent | 29b99d80f47c2c40c2aae6fc64f309a4e47fabff (diff) | |
| download | pi-bitcoindev-8fd15df12ea5c1f378010ed0b0d32fde8dd2ab7d.tar.gz pi-bitcoindev-8fd15df12ea5c1f378010ed0b0d32fde8dd2ab7d.zip | |
Re: [bitcoin-dev] bitcoin-dev Digest, Vol 85, Issue 4
Diffstat (limited to 'a1/4361ceb192ad13938857d3f6cc44aefdc9e410')
| -rw-r--r-- | a1/4361ceb192ad13938857d3f6cc44aefdc9e410 | 273 |
1 files changed, 273 insertions, 0 deletions
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a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; + d=1e100.net; s=20210112; + h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date + :message-id:subject:to; + bh=xFZK5bTKUDRXDK7BPZfGwSDSMdR5GY7Cx2I8vEfv+s8=; + b=4A0a4X4d2bTYDBwaniyCT7d2knHYwT3Haua7Y5PlcPa0zY2Mu0o92K81Zrmkr7R2rY + vmpFDPXxqtYww8jMCHgU0/wSAcurFwSTQE8bp+3vSXFpu9YdIFTYPkD0A2QdoF8m7xQv + yipX00AaBchcfkDwwBcJRPKpI4adFddyAI1aHgRbv6LA1dukd7K+LFXtJSkA6MQyOQni + F8SQrklhPewNSkKGR8j7fVMp/ALVAmeBM2LQgGp1Nmeh1rcI+O/L8PkAK0Vb9Ne2l9BO + /Wbsz8tqbhi6OoXKO7puaGgaziBZxBY1xtx2ZFOyOTly76BcsAU4AgjxF1bE4TO9OGXZ + QATg== +X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM532ZJsCbCnWzjDo927WVFT0WHJ43c9r2+Vojrg8sINpbIjuFp4uO + j+/D4Otru65PEBrAqHj1lZOlUWJHYnFbongwQAxuzbfr7Qw= +X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJyCzwkid+sM+M/FDIkbiWqfF7ulPMSy34jQbHLxfXXvm2IVkFJRoYM8EYoYJXtlwUrfITe2RfZVFe2RcoSX1eA= +X-Received: by 2002:a62:820a:0:b0:51b:d1f9:b45f with SMTP id + w10-20020a62820a000000b0051bd1f9b45fmr28921021pfd.63.1654661148428; Tue, 07 + Jun 2022 21:05:48 -0700 (PDT) +MIME-Version: 1.0 +References: <mailman.7.1654430403.1388.bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org> + <CAPweEDwTSDhRav6Uw2iYTKJDZH60D8eoQYSc-VejUXjrTai60g@mail.gmail.com> +In-Reply-To: <CAPweEDwTSDhRav6Uw2iYTKJDZH60D8eoQYSc-VejUXjrTai60g@mail.gmail.com> +From: Billy Tetrud <billy.tetrud@gmail.com> +Date: Tue, 7 Jun 2022 23:05:33 -0500 +Message-ID: <CAGpPWDZjAgDJVYFwm+Le3bRTW3U=HD5uE-MzC+nOKnonXL3D+Q@mail.gmail.com> +To: Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton <lkcl@lkcl.net>, + Bitcoin Protocol Discussion <bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org> +Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000f9d06005e0e7d11a" +X-Mailman-Approved-At: Wed, 08 Jun 2022 07:38:08 +0000 +Subject: Re: [bitcoin-dev] bitcoin-dev Digest, Vol 85, Issue 4 +X-BeenThere: bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org +X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 +Precedence: list +List-Id: Bitcoin Protocol Discussion <bitcoin-dev.lists.linuxfoundation.org> +List-Unsubscribe: <https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/options/bitcoin-dev>, + <mailto:bitcoin-dev-request@lists.linuxfoundation.org?subject=unsubscribe> +List-Archive: <http://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/bitcoin-dev/> +List-Post: <mailto:bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org> +List-Help: <mailto:bitcoin-dev-request@lists.linuxfoundation.org?subject=help> +List-Subscribe: <https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev>, + <mailto:bitcoin-dev-request@lists.linuxfoundation.org?subject=subscribe> +X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 08 Jun 2022 04:05:50 -0000 + +--000000000000f9d06005e0e7d11a +Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" + +That sounds like an interesting mechanism to help measure consensus - and a +good way to do that would help bitcoin significantly I think. I don't quite +see what the similarity is between Trust Metric and bitcoin tho. How +would you propose "building it into" bitcoin? + +From my limited searching, it looks like trust metric is basically a graph +of who trusts who, allowing you to quantify who's trusted among a +particular set or subset of people. Is that right? I would think such a +thing can be done completely separately from bitcoin, but used to answer +questions about bitcoin. + +I'm curious to know specifically how the metric works and how its resistant +to adversaries, specifically how its sybil resistant. In particular I'm +curious what weaknesses it has that could be gamed. It seems sybil +resistance might be there for a while, but I can imagine that it might be +possible for a colluding set of users to farm aliases with higher and +higher reputation until they could take over the network. In bitcoin, there +are good ways of bolstering such sybil resistance, eg by charging fees for +identities in some way, or by requiring proof of funds. + +On Sun, Jun 5, 2022 at 8:19 AM Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton via bitcoin-dev +<bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org> wrote: + +> (apologies i am subscribed digest) +> +> On Sun, Jun 5, 2022 at 1:00 PM +> <bitcoin-dev-request@lists.linuxfoundation.org> wrote: +> +> > Date: Sun, 05 Jun 2022 04:18:04 +0000 +> > From: alicexbt <alicexbt@protonmail.com> +> > To: Bitcoin Protocol Discussion +> > <bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org> +> > Subject: Re: [bitcoin-dev] Bitcoin covenants are inevitable +> > Message-ID: +> > +> <zyE-uR_2M7vAE8jXf3wthIGQj_-dz9FoL50ERTmCb-MCv4zyMgoHAdSff539SPtROJpJdgrfBspM3IZJrNQ9V4kpDnyMB9X6mlWf0eSk1Rk=@ +> protonmail.com> +> > Hi Jorge, +> > +> > +> > Misinformation is false or inaccurate information, especially that which +> is deliberately intended to deceive. +> > A combination of 'misleading' and 'information'. +> +> it's a classic technique that was refined by psy-ops well over +> 60 years ago. it should come as no surprise at all that it is +> being systematically deployed to undermine bitcoin. +> (welcome to the party, all psy-ops teams reading this: i admire your +> persistence and tenacity. you serve an extremely useful purpose +> of detecting flaws in the resilience of bitcoin and its development.) +> +> a potential solution is Trust Metrics. the most successful open +> source experiment in that regard was advogato.org by Raph Levien. +> +> i expanded it greatly so that any user could specify the "seeds" +> whom *they* trusted, rather than being forced to utilise the fixed +> hard-coded user ids in the advogato.org source code (this difference +> is extremely important for de-centralisation) +> +> public declarations of trust, and their propagation through standard +> Maximum-Flow Graph analysis, helps greatly to filter out the crap. +> advogato deflected heavy systematic and sustained spam attacks +> thanks to the simple expedient of users declaring publicly whom +> they trusted. +> +> a more advanced version of the max-flow concept came up a few +> years later called keynote (RFC2704) +> +> the similarity between trust metric evaluation and the bitcoin protocol +> is so remarkable that i am, frankly, slightly stunned that it was not +> added right from the start. +> +> it is ironic that the lack of integrated trust metric evaluation built-in +> to the bitcoin protocol is now hampering developers from being able +> to evaluate whom to trust when it comes to protocol development. +> +> l. +> _______________________________________________ +> bitcoin-dev mailing list +> bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org +> https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev +> + +--000000000000f9d06005e0e7d11a +Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" +Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable + +<div dir=3D"ltr">That sounds like an interesting mechanism to help measure = +consensus - and a good way to do that would help bitcoin significantly=C2= +=A0I think. I don't quite see what the similarity=C2=A0is between Trust= + Metric and bitcoin tho. How would=C2=A0you propose "building it into&= +quot; bitcoin?=C2=A0<div><br></div><div>From my limited searching, it looks= + like trust metric is basically a graph of who trusts who, allowing you to = +quantify who's trusted among a particular set or subset of people. Is t= +hat right? I would think such a thing can be done completely separately fro= +m bitcoin, but used to answer questions=C2=A0about bitcoin.</div><div><br><= +/div><div>I'm curious to know specifically how the metric works and how= + its resistant to adversaries, specifically how its sybil resistant. In par= +ticular I'm curious what weaknesses it has that could be gamed. It seem= +s sybil resistance might be there for a while, but I can imagine that it mi= +ght be possible for a colluding set of users to farm aliases with higher an= +d higher reputation until they could take over the network. In bitcoin, the= +re are good ways of bolstering such sybil resistance, eg by charging fees f= +or identities in some way, or by requiring proof of funds.=C2=A0</div></div= +><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Su= +n, Jun 5, 2022 at 8:19 AM Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton via bitcoin-dev <= +<a href=3D"mailto:bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org" target=3D"_blank">= +bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote c= +lass=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px soli= +d rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">(apologies i am subscribed digest)<br> +<br> +On Sun, Jun 5, 2022 at 1:00 PM<br> +<<a href=3D"mailto:bitcoin-dev-request@lists.linuxfoundation.org" target= +=3D"_blank">bitcoin-dev-request@lists.linuxfoundation.org</a>> wrote:<br= +> +<br> +> Date: Sun, 05 Jun 2022 04:18:04 +0000<br> +> From: alicexbt <<a href=3D"mailto:alicexbt@protonmail.com" target= +=3D"_blank">alicexbt@protonmail.com</a>><br> +> To: Bitcoin Protocol Discussion<br> +>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0<<a href=3D"mailto:bitcoin-dev@lis= +ts.linuxfoundation.org" target=3D"_blank">bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation= +.org</a>><br> +> Subject: Re: [bitcoin-dev] Bitcoin covenants are inevitable<br> +> Message-ID:<br> +>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0<zyE-uR_2M7vAE8jXf3wthIGQj_-dz9FoL= +50ERTmCb-MCv4zyMgoHAdSff539SPtROJpJdgrfBspM3IZJrNQ9V4kpDnyMB9X6mlWf0eSk1Rk= +=3D@<a href=3D"http://protonmail.com" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">= +protonmail.com</a>><br> +> Hi Jorge,<br> +><br> +><br> +> Misinformation is false or inaccurate information, especially that whi= +ch is deliberately intended to deceive.<br> +> A combination of 'misleading' and 'information'.<br> +<br> +it's a classic technique that was refined by psy-ops well over<br> +60 years ago.=C2=A0 it should come as no surprise at all that it is<br> +being systematically deployed to undermine bitcoin.<br> +(welcome to the party, all psy-ops teams reading this: i admire your<br> +=C2=A0persistence and tenacity. you serve an extremely useful purpose<br> +=C2=A0of detecting flaws in the resilience of bitcoin and its development.)= +<br> +<br> +a potential solution is Trust Metrics. the most successful open<br> +source experiment in that regard was <a href=3D"http://advogato.org" rel=3D= +"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">advogato.org</a> by Raph Levien.<br> +<br> +i expanded it greatly so that any user could specify the "seeds"<= +br> +whom *they* trusted, rather than being forced to utilise the fixed<br> +hard-coded user ids in the <a href=3D"http://advogato.org" rel=3D"noreferre= +r" target=3D"_blank">advogato.org</a> source code (this difference<br> +is extremely important for de-centralisation)<br> +<br> +public declarations of trust, and their propagation through standard<br> +Maximum-Flow Graph analysis, helps greatly to filter out the crap.<br> +advogato deflected heavy systematic and sustained spam attacks<br> +thanks to the simple expedient of users declaring publicly whom<br> +they trusted.<br> +<br> +a more advanced version of the max-flow concept came up a few<br> +years later called keynote (RFC2704)<br> +<br> +the similarity between trust metric evaluation and the bitcoin protocol<br> +is so remarkable that i am, frankly, slightly stunned that it was not<br> +added right from the start.<br> +<br> +it is ironic that the lack of integrated trust metric evaluation built-in<b= +r> +to the bitcoin protocol is now hampering developers from being able<br> +to evaluate whom to trust when it comes to protocol development.<br> +<br> +l.<br> +_______________________________________________<br> +bitcoin-dev mailing list<br> +<a href=3D"mailto:bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org" target=3D"_blank">= +bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org</a><br> +<a href=3D"https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev" = +rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mail= +man/listinfo/bitcoin-dev</a><br> +</blockquote></div> + +--000000000000f9d06005e0e7d11a-- + |