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| author | Dave Hudson <dave@hashingit.com> | 2015-05-12 17:21:40 +0100 |
|---|---|---|
| committer | bitcoindev <bitcoindev@gnusha.org> | 2015-05-12 16:21:51 +0000 |
| commit | e4d5ce0ea1f202dbb2d3328a54622e4b599a0e96 (patch) | |
| tree | c571dbc90abdb044627b59786a5dae4508bbae28 | |
| parent | a393be3e1f9719a6424ecf2d0aa1787aef18ec76 (diff) | |
| download | pi-bitcoindev-e4d5ce0ea1f202dbb2d3328a54622e4b599a0e96.tar.gz pi-bitcoindev-e4d5ce0ea1f202dbb2d3328a54622e4b599a0e96.zip | |
Re: [Bitcoin-development] Long-term mining incentives
| -rw-r--r-- | d5/573caeb3e4ad708d40cf352c0bcfb0ad23efa5 | 248 |
1 files changed, 248 insertions, 0 deletions
diff --git a/d5/573caeb3e4ad708d40cf352c0bcfb0ad23efa5 b/d5/573caeb3e4ad708d40cf352c0bcfb0ad23efa5 new file mode 100644 index 000000000..c257f2a09 --- /dev/null +++ b/d5/573caeb3e4ad708d40cf352c0bcfb0ad23efa5 @@ -0,0 +1,248 @@ +Received: from sog-mx-3.v43.ch3.sourceforge.com ([172.29.43.193] + helo=mx.sourceforge.net) + by sfs-ml-1.v29.ch3.sourceforge.com with esmtp (Exim 4.76) + (envelope-from <dave@hashingit.com>) id 1YsCwJ-0002Yo-4w + for bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net; + Tue, 12 May 2015 16:21:51 +0000 +Received-SPF: softfail (sog-mx-3.v43.ch3.sourceforge.com: transitioning domain + of hashingit.com does not designate 89.145.69.228 as permitted + sender) client-ip=89.145.69.228; + envelope-from=dave@hashingit.com; helo=heron.directrouter.co.uk; +Received: from heron.directrouter.co.uk ([89.145.69.228]) + by sog-mx-3.v43.ch3.sourceforge.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) + (Exim 4.76) id 1YsCwG-0002u0-WA + for bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net; + Tue, 12 May 2015 16:21:51 +0000 +Received: from host81-151-120-191.range81-151.btcentralplus.com + ([81.151.120.191]:54556 helo=[192.168.1.82]) + by heron.directrouter.co.uk with esmtpsa (TLSv1:DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA:256) + (Exim 4.85) (envelope-from <dave@hashingit.com>) + id 1YsCw9-001UVv-IK; Tue, 12 May 2015 16:21:41 +0000 +Content-Type: multipart/alternative; + boundary="Apple-Mail=_8BC3E943-08E7-4C35-9E50-5C3F5143F7E8" +Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 8.2 \(2098\)) +From: Dave Hudson <dave@hashingit.com> +In-Reply-To: <CABsx9T3AxM3et7hgXx3+Rn3BvhQkF-Cn797sHcyztkMpD1UQmA@mail.gmail.com> +Date: Tue, 12 May 2015 17:21:40 +0100 +Message-Id: <6D03480C-C9B9-4CCC-938B-151AC0DD57F0@hashingit.com> +References: <5550D8BE.6070207@electrum.org> + <ce3d34c92efd1cf57326e4679550944e@national.shitposting.agency> + <CABsx9T1VgxEJWxrYTs+2hXGnGrSLGJ6mVcAexjXLvK7Vu+e3EA@mail.gmail.com> + <5551F376.4050008@electrum.org> + <CABsx9T1h7p3hDr7ty43uxsYs-oNRpndzg=dowST2tXtogxRm2g@mail.gmail.com> + <555210AF.3090705@electrum.org> + <CABsx9T3AxM3et7hgXx3+Rn3BvhQkF-Cn797sHcyztkMpD1UQmA@mail.gmail.com> +To: Gavin Andresen <gavinandresen@gmail.com> +X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.2098) +X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, + please include it with any abuse report +X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - heron.directrouter.co.uk +X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - lists.sourceforge.net +X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [47 12] / [47 12] +X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - hashingit.com +X-Get-Message-Sender-Via: heron.directrouter.co.uk: authenticated_id: + dave@hashingit.com +X-Source: +X-Source-Args: +X-Source-Dir: +X-Spam-Score: 2.0 (++) +X-Spam-Report: Spam Filtering performed by mx.sourceforge.net. + See http://spamassassin.org/tag/ for more details. + 1.0 SPF_SOFTFAIL SPF: sender does not match SPF record (softfail) + 1.0 HTML_MESSAGE BODY: HTML included in message +X-Headers-End: 1YsCwG-0002u0-WA +Cc: Bitcoin Dev <bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net> +Subject: Re: [Bitcoin-development] Long-term mining incentives +X-BeenThere: bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net +X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 +Precedence: list +List-Id: <bitcoin-development.lists.sourceforge.net> +List-Unsubscribe: <https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development>, + <mailto:bitcoin-development-request@lists.sourceforge.net?subject=unsubscribe> +List-Archive: <http://sourceforge.net/mailarchive/forum.php?forum_name=bitcoin-development> +List-Post: <mailto:bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net> +List-Help: <mailto:bitcoin-development-request@lists.sourceforge.net?subject=help> +List-Subscribe: <https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development>, + <mailto:bitcoin-development-request@lists.sourceforge.net?subject=subscribe> +X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 12 May 2015 16:21:51 -0000 + + +--Apple-Mail=_8BC3E943-08E7-4C35-9E50-5C3F5143F7E8 +Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable +Content-Type: text/plain; + charset=utf-8 + +I think proof-of-idle had a potentially serious problem when I last = +looked at it. The risk is that a largish miner can use everyone else's = +idle time to construct a very long chain; it's also easy enough for them = +to make it appear to be the work of a large number of distinct miners. = +Given that this would allow them to arbitrarily re-mine any block = +rewards and potentially censor any transactions then that just seems = +like a huge security hole? + + +Cheers, +Dave + + +> On 12 May 2015, at 17:10, Gavin Andresen <gavinandresen@gmail.com> = +wrote: +>=20 +> Added back the list, I didn't mean to reply privately: +>=20 +> Fair enough, I'll try to find time in the next month or three to write = +up four plausible future scenarios for how mining incentives might work: +>=20 +> 1) Fee-supported with very large blocks containing lots of tiny-fee = +transactions +> 2) Proof-of-idle supported (I wish Tadge Dryja would publish his = +proof-of-idle idea....) +> 3) Fees purely as transaction-spam-prevention measure, chain security = +via alternative consensus algorithm (in this scenario there is very = +little mining). +> 4) Fee supported with small blocks containing high-fee transactions = +moving coins to/from sidechains. +>=20 +> Would that be helpful, or do you have some reason for thinking that we = +should pick just one and focus all of our efforts on making that one = +scenario happen? +>=20 +> I always think it is better, when possible, not to "bet on one horse." +>=20 +>=20 +> On Tue, May 12, 2015 at 10:39 AM, Thomas Voegtlin = +<thomasv@electrum.org <mailto:thomasv@electrum.org>> wrote: +> Le 12/05/2015 15:44, Gavin Andresen a =C3=A9crit : +> > Ok, here's my scenario: +> > +> > https://blog.bitcoinfoundation.org/a-scalability-roadmap/ = +<https://blog.bitcoinfoundation.org/a-scalability-roadmap/> +> > +> > It might be wrong. I welcome other people to present their road = +maps. +> > +>=20 +> [answering to you only because you answered to me and not to the list; +> feel free to repost this to the list though] +>=20 +> Yes, that's exactly the kind of roadmap I am asking for. But your blog +> post does not say anything about long term mining incentives, it only +> talks about scalability. My point is that we need the same kind of = +thing +> for miners incentives. +>=20 +>=20 +>=20 +> --=20 +> -- +> Gavin Andresen +> = +--------------------------------------------------------------------------= +---- +> One dashboard for servers and applications across = +Physical-Virtual-Cloud=20 +> Widest out-of-the-box monitoring support with 50+ applications +> Performance metrics, stats and reports that give you Actionable = +Insights +> Deep dive visibility with transaction tracing using APM Insight. +> = +http://ad.doubleclick.net/ddm/clk/290420510;117567292;y___________________= +____________________________ +> Bitcoin-development mailing list +> Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net +> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development + + +--Apple-Mail=_8BC3E943-08E7-4C35-9E50-5C3F5143F7E8 +Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable +Content-Type: text/html; + charset=utf-8 + +<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html = +charset=3Dutf-8"></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; = +-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" = +class=3D""><div class=3D"">I think proof-of-idle had a potentially = +serious problem when I last looked at it. The risk is that a largish = +miner can use everyone else's idle time to construct a very long chain; = +it's also easy enough for them to make it appear to be the work of a = +large number of distinct miners. Given that this would allow them to = +arbitrarily re-mine any block rewards and potentially censor any = +transactions then that just seems like a huge security hole?</div><div = +class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div = +class=3D"">Cheers,</div><div class=3D"">Dave</div><div class=3D""><br = +class=3D""></div><br class=3D""><div><blockquote type=3D"cite" = +class=3D""><div class=3D"">On 12 May 2015, at 17:10, Gavin Andresen = +<<a href=3D"mailto:gavinandresen@gmail.com" = +class=3D"">gavinandresen@gmail.com</a>> wrote:</div><br = +class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=3D""><div dir=3D"ltr" = +class=3D""><div class=3D"">Added back the list, I didn't mean to reply = +privately:</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div>Fair enough, I'll = +try to find time in the next month or three to write up four plausible = +future scenarios for how mining incentives might work:<div class=3D""><br = +class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">1) Fee-supported with very large blocks = +containing lots of tiny-fee transactions</div><div class=3D"">2) = +Proof-of-idle supported (I wish Tadge Dryja would publish his = +proof-of-idle idea....)</div><div class=3D"">3) Fees purely as = +transaction-spam-prevention measure, chain security via alternative = +consensus algorithm (in this scenario there is very little = +mining).</div><div class=3D"">4) Fee supported with small blocks = +containing high-fee transactions moving coins to/from = +sidechains.</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div = +class=3D"">Would that be helpful, or do you have some reason for = +thinking that we should pick just one and focus all of our efforts on = +making that one scenario happen?</div><div class=3D""><br = +class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">I always think it is better, when = +possible, not to "bet on one horse."</div><div class=3D""><br = +class=3D""></div><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br class=3D""><div = +class=3D"gmail_quote">On Tue, May 12, 2015 at 10:39 AM, Thomas Voegtlin = +<span dir=3D"ltr" class=3D""><<a href=3D"mailto:thomasv@electrum.org" = +target=3D"_blank" class=3D"">thomasv@electrum.org</a>></span> = +wrote:<br class=3D""><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 = +0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><span class=3D"">Le = +12/05/2015 15:44, Gavin Andresen a =C3=A9crit :<br class=3D""> +> Ok, here's my scenario:<br class=3D""> +><br class=3D""> +> <a href=3D"https://blog.bitcoinfoundation.org/a-scalability-roadmap/"= + target=3D"_blank" = +class=3D"">https://blog.bitcoinfoundation.org/a-scalability-roadmap/</a><b= +r class=3D""> +><br class=3D""> +> It might be wrong. I welcome other people to present their road = +maps.<br class=3D""> +><br class=3D""> +<br class=3D""> +</span>[answering to you only because you answered to me and not to the = +list;<br class=3D""> +feel free to repost this to the list though]<br class=3D""> +<br class=3D""> +Yes, that's exactly the kind of roadmap I am asking for. But your = +blog<br class=3D""> +post does not say anything about long term mining incentives, it only<br = +class=3D""> +talks about scalability. My point is that we need the same kind of = +thing<br class=3D""> +for miners incentives.<br class=3D""> +</blockquote></div><br class=3D""><br clear=3D"all" class=3D""><div = +class=3D""><br class=3D""></div>-- <br class=3D""><div = +class=3D"gmail_signature">--<br class=3D"">Gavin Andresen<br = +class=3D""></div> +</div></div> += +--------------------------------------------------------------------------= +----<br class=3D"">One dashboard for servers and applications across = +Physical-Virtual-Cloud <br class=3D"">Widest out-of-the-box monitoring = +support with 50+ applications<br class=3D"">Performance metrics, stats = +and reports that give you Actionable Insights<br class=3D"">Deep dive = +visibility with transaction tracing using APM Insight.<br class=3D""><a = +href=3D"http://ad.doubleclick.net/ddm/clk/290420510;117567292;y___________= +____________________________________" = +class=3D"">http://ad.doubleclick.net/ddm/clk/290420510;117567292;y________= +_______________________________________</a><br = +class=3D"">Bitcoin-development mailing list<br = +class=3D"">Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net<br = +class=3D"">https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-developmen= +t<br class=3D""></div></blockquote></div><br class=3D""></body></html>= + +--Apple-Mail=_8BC3E943-08E7-4C35-9E50-5C3F5143F7E8-- + + |