diff options
| author | Martin Stolze <martin@stolze.cc> | 2017-03-28 20:51:02 +0100 |
|---|---|---|
| committer | bitcoindev <bitcoindev@gnusha.org> | 2017-03-28 19:51:24 +0000 |
| commit | 798c71dcf16f24bf0dc1f52aae70cdb7963b144c (patch) | |
| tree | c3ac72afc1eb85e43f54e4952ee5bea5657c0c37 | |
| parent | 6e616dbec261ab90de24156dd733748e1fcb436c (diff) | |
| download | pi-bitcoindev-798c71dcf16f24bf0dc1f52aae70cdb7963b144c.tar.gz pi-bitcoindev-798c71dcf16f24bf0dc1f52aae70cdb7963b144c.zip | |
Re: [bitcoin-dev] Inquiry: Transaction Tiering
| -rw-r--r-- | 0c/47bd00350543dfd9d754ec198910ffbe83469e | 169 |
1 files changed, 169 insertions, 0 deletions
diff --git a/0c/47bd00350543dfd9d754ec198910ffbe83469e b/0c/47bd00350543dfd9d754ec198910ffbe83469e new file mode 100644 index 000000000..9cdcc512a --- /dev/null +++ b/0c/47bd00350543dfd9d754ec198910ffbe83469e @@ -0,0 +1,169 @@ +Return-Path: <martin@stolze.cc> +Received: from smtp1.linuxfoundation.org (smtp1.linux-foundation.org + [172.17.192.35]) + by mail.linuxfoundation.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 82A28A88 + for <bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org>; + Tue, 28 Mar 2017 19:51:24 +0000 (UTC) +X-Greylist: whitelisted by SQLgrey-1.7.6 +Received: from mail-qk0-f178.google.com (mail-qk0-f178.google.com + [209.85.220.178]) + by smtp1.linuxfoundation.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id AA603141 + for <bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org>; + Tue, 28 Mar 2017 19:51:23 +0000 (UTC) +Received: by mail-qk0-f178.google.com with SMTP id p22so75406208qka.3 + for <bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org>; + Tue, 28 Mar 2017 12:51:23 -0700 (PDT) +DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; + d=stolze-cc.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; + h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to + :cc; bh=TF8d2CWEJzw/umVONGA0a2Zq4JOygikY3sq8qeywjro=; + b=rwIyHLVjpbnZfsIqxjoTL1P/zTb0o3g52b7fa8Vj+uhQxD4FFwV61ZV6cIzaE3+m3o + sCI6cD1T1P5zwXJH8a/iPZsK2cWRH3rUv6JA25BFOV4Cs2jldUKBecG6nCA98yxTVuZc + 85gQhniN/vKS5xWWiMSgRQKa2przy2IwYIe02D/jZlD6qsoL9/F3NSO8+a8lVK+WcaAa + VKon+2MNHtLiMfNXJ0RDsvQpI01WOU3gecUlhebYlZc4Tqq2vk4WnfsnJ1Lz9NiTK6vL + 0wGXMLGmBh4kjEtOlpTSVW0pcj27WZ2dbGir8dZh10lBAzP3RVd4FkJoVYEXApv+sgNZ + 3cAQ== +X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; + d=1e100.net; s=20161025; + h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date + :message-id:subject:to:cc; + bh=TF8d2CWEJzw/umVONGA0a2Zq4JOygikY3sq8qeywjro=; + b=IkIUs1+MyXORWUaHX+AoeCcr//Wx2YmqCB/ErXW3u4MmFrWJT2gjRFyKbngqd9bM8B + 9tE6MNWWkMc1nUD7as4YpPIX/kj78hdtfYljOiWhnQ7HcXyy3nZ/QxDVzEYUTcd9NFtD + xY+D3FHKTeNkg1vx6sNTnUVBUM0oe3QGvFxeOang7lhLkn8V3j/nHVUpUBPTTpJpUcTN + CljQ7YD/48UAm2hNhuwXZk+JtS/8TPgL77IHvDGH4YanS6e4OmwS2t7yPF4s4k6wHIiv + 5ZhXAR5GtgzTlIHoAecvb2qNxqBrzdebCpAUkHmyxq0OLXBlpsv9Q0Zdkg0xs3uxMgbn + OBXg== +X-Gm-Message-State: AFeK/H2qOVG/GLLvqcKeRrlLYqPNkPTM2YWumA4blit6oNs1OinES/nQP9pw3k6+8hM3F6eRvGB0w+8QXmFpqA== +X-Received: by 10.55.88.66 with SMTP id m63mr28276068qkb.270.1490730682743; + Tue, 28 Mar 2017 12:51:22 -0700 (PDT) +MIME-Version: 1.0 +Received: by 10.237.63.78 with HTTP; Tue, 28 Mar 2017 12:51:02 -0700 (PDT) +X-Originating-IP: [185.16.85.171] +In-Reply-To: <7CmgrdJ_lxx6nto8dmMO3P89LK0x9HtUjTMtNklCFKbdIjN6KDauYZqf3get3gufCcoMarQ1cnvqJcnfxQsO83fvixWCm1xL6BrHort8v3E=@protonmail.com> +References: <CAOyfL0r8dLR=7Co5+YzbPQUeTs6Lw+OQjZTy=iyoDmr6VV_Qpw@mail.gmail.com> + <Rs51ijp6P21vJsv7OxVB-k8vuJC_aUd8KnpxHC3phNw_lPieY2lS-k95gytpHTNzzBfuX030RRFKzrrwS3pfjTuFea_eUfErb3qDp5LDHp4=@protonmail.com> + <CAOyfL0qW=8091BAo9R2mskbyFSS3hOnXd+Wjsu4LQy7EtqzJjg@mail.gmail.com> + <fFz3k0NstFYpKctCaSKDrhPnkInjW3GgQ-3FIyokzdl_SScKjXptQsn8jnW71ax_oknq9hI8gUBllYaKo_9hMiBASSJtkL6xXN_NX8tcmXw=@protonmail.com> + <CAOyfL0pnkf4gOAJHgOSJgz2RLGupvQtcHewEijBHz9GWnr0rAw@mail.gmail.com> + <7CmgrdJ_lxx6nto8dmMO3P89LK0x9HtUjTMtNklCFKbdIjN6KDauYZqf3get3gufCcoMarQ1cnvqJcnfxQsO83fvixWCm1xL6BrHort8v3E=@protonmail.com> +From: Martin Stolze <martin@stolze.cc> +Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2017 20:51:02 +0100 +Message-ID: <CAOyfL0oCs6-N6MXQob0CqKS2Vr8ZFZOud==b9vsSYxLceYix-A@mail.gmail.com> +To: praxeology_guy <praxeology_guy@protonmail.com> +Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 +X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.4 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00,DKIM_SIGNED, + DKIM_VALID, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE, + RCVD_IN_SORBS_SPAM autolearn=no version=3.3.1 +X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.3.1 (2010-03-16) on + smtp1.linux-foundation.org +X-Mailman-Approved-At: Wed, 29 Mar 2017 13:48:57 +0000 +Cc: Bitcoin Protocol Discussion <bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org> +Subject: Re: [bitcoin-dev] Inquiry: Transaction Tiering +X-BeenThere: bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org +X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 +Precedence: list +List-Id: Bitcoin Protocol Discussion <bitcoin-dev.lists.linuxfoundation.org> +List-Unsubscribe: <https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/options/bitcoin-dev>, + <mailto:bitcoin-dev-request@lists.linuxfoundation.org?subject=unsubscribe> +List-Archive: <http://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/bitcoin-dev/> +List-Post: <mailto:bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org> +List-Help: <mailto:bitcoin-dev-request@lists.linuxfoundation.org?subject=help> +List-Subscribe: <https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev>, + <mailto:bitcoin-dev-request@lists.linuxfoundation.org?subject=subscribe> +X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2017 19:51:24 -0000 + +As I alluded to before, certain language lends itself to simple conclusions. +You say that "miner" have simple profit motives and compete only in +their respective domains. But what is "mining"? + +It is the process of acquiring a part of the block space. He who +acquires that space can decide over this particular space. (1) Your +entire theory falls apart at the point of an empty block. (2) "The +pursuit of profit can come at the expense of Bitcoin:" +(https://twitter.com/ToneVays/status/835233366203072513). (3) Bitcoin +has additional value, like a brand value that could be diverted. +- The market can be gamed for profit. Really. + +> So... miners don't really have any authority. + +I fall back on Carl Schmitt according to which the sovereign is he who +decides on the state of exception: If there is some person or +institution, in a given polity, capable of bringing about a total +suspension of the law and then to use extra-legal force to normalize +the situation, then that person or institution is the sovereign in +that polity. +- That is spot on, I don't know why the rest of the political theory +shouldn't apply. + +> Using miner signalling to determine when/whether SegWit is activated [...] + +I didn't think of that, but you are right. The problem is just that it +didn't just give them the impression that they have authority, it +actually transferred the authority. + +Again: "The question is simply what legitimate authority a node has." +- You gave legitimacy to their authority! Core did! +(Conversely, the intelligence service of some dictatorship may get +enough hash power to claim authority over the block space, however, +this would have zero legitimacy and could easily be dealt with.) + +:( + +miner signaling ... just "miner", right? + +Thanks for helping me understand. +Martin + + +On Tue, Mar 28, 2017 at 8:02 AM, praxeology_guy +<praxeology_guy@protonmail.com> wrote: +> Martin: +> +> Re: Block Space Authority, or "authority": in general +> +> An authority dictates policy. +> +> Authority arises in 4 cases off the top of my head: +> - Authority because entity threats violence/dominance +> - Authority because entity's claim to property is respected to maintain +> friendship/benefits of specialization and trade. (one has authority over +> one's own property/business/contractually agreed claims) +> - Authority because entity claims divine inspiration, and others accept such +> a claim +> - Authority because entity gained respect and was voluntarily delegated +> +> "Miners" do not fit in any of these categories. In fact "miners" do the +> exact opposite, their policy is dictated by market demand. They do us the +> service of creating block candidates. If a miner is a good businessman, he +> mines whatever currency gives him the most profit. The end users decide the +> policy and which currency is worth anything. Hence the users are the ones +> dictating to the miners how much work they should perform on each coin. +> +> Miners compete against each other until there is only very slim profit. If +> they are devoting too much work to a coin they spend too much on +> energy/computers/network, and they have losses, so they reduce capacity on +> that coin. If mining a coin is extremely profitable, they expand their work +> until there is no profit. +> +> So... miners don't really have any authority. Or if for some reason +> somebody does give them authority, its due to either the Divine (lol +> unlikely) or Respect reasons above... which is an unfounded/insecure reason. +> +> Using miner signalling to determine when/whether SegWit is activated was a +> mistake in any extent that gave people the implication that miners have any +> authority. It was a poor way to schedule its activation. We assumed that +> the miners would activate it in a reasonable time because SegWit is +> undeniably good, so we just used this method to try to prevent a soft fork. +> Instead I recommend my proposed BitcoinUpdateBoard +> https://pastebin.com/ikBGPVfR. Or bitcoin core could include more entities +> such as specific miners and exchanges in their table located here: +> https://bitcoincore.org/en/segwit_adoption/. +> +> We already have come to consensus that SegWit is good. So we should just +> schedule a date to activate it in the future where market participants have +> a reasonable time to prepare. +> +> Cheers, +> Praxeology Guy + |