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| author | Vladimir Zaytsev <vladimir.zaytsev@gmail.com> | 2017-03-30 22:26:31 -0400 |
|---|---|---|
| committer | bitcoindev <bitcoindev@gnusha.org> | 2017-03-31 02:26:35 +0000 |
| commit | 4ef3fc7ff4638c7a7654e9a75b7d4896970cf8cd (patch) | |
| tree | c19dcc2a279f618e758fa1e4fd90535146059989 | |
| parent | 1174097001e73bbdc117b40eda97d51cff47d0d1 (diff) | |
| download | pi-bitcoindev-4ef3fc7ff4638c7a7654e9a75b7d4896970cf8cd.tar.gz pi-bitcoindev-4ef3fc7ff4638c7a7654e9a75b7d4896970cf8cd.zip | |
Re: [bitcoin-dev] High fees / centralization
| -rw-r--r-- | 4b/5fcab5d0a16930cdeea4cd1de5c3336dc313aa | 223 |
1 files changed, 223 insertions, 0 deletions
diff --git a/4b/5fcab5d0a16930cdeea4cd1de5c3336dc313aa b/4b/5fcab5d0a16930cdeea4cd1de5c3336dc313aa new file mode 100644 index 000000000..9fb24077a --- /dev/null +++ b/4b/5fcab5d0a16930cdeea4cd1de5c3336dc313aa @@ -0,0 +1,223 @@ +Return-Path: <vladimir.zaytsev@gmail.com> +Received: from smtp1.linuxfoundation.org (smtp1.linux-foundation.org + [172.17.192.35]) + by mail.linuxfoundation.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id AA03E72A + for <bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org>; + Fri, 31 Mar 2017 02:26:35 +0000 (UTC) +X-Greylist: whitelisted by SQLgrey-1.7.6 +Received: from mail-qk0-f175.google.com (mail-qk0-f175.google.com + [209.85.220.175]) + by smtp1.linuxfoundation.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 034F9169 + for <bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org>; + Fri, 31 Mar 2017 02:26:34 +0000 (UTC) +Received: by mail-qk0-f175.google.com with SMTP id d201so26496801qkc.0 + for <bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org>; + Thu, 30 Mar 2017 19:26:34 -0700 (PDT) +DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; + h=from:message-id:mime-version:subject:date:in-reply-to:cc:to + :references; bh=QhobKvrQnKopyyfz1G8HL5YxIvCFzaUx2LShO5K2Pz8=; + b=BunYOOPFpx09xRkLUDWg30ys3beizFYDl75h60uBgQnHZIJFEDHpM/fMpl6cxQXNrf + 2TzlS/kBjWRFv5h3MAKuJIuTY6kGdcpRtgA/IZGUHvTjRXUYlDWm8IXRG6bEDi1IFdhM + O0dyRU2Xmuyjd+oPPO1huUDdjWd6MeDahBhoWQ2DNnOqWQHp2y2jMvpS1NcJ/iNGERZI + bHKaU2a5P38drgHoN8cTjs8P5uUWlYPhq0ujbxi6DpWk8Vk5x8nvYO7dgYbN0Om8JYy1 + kIs27S0WorL1lwOvnsts4zo2a9TlM+RBFcHf1rU23fFNQOzsyQupTlvgYL24L4DTQhDo + i+yw== +X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; + d=1e100.net; s=20161025; + h=x-gm-message-state:from:message-id:mime-version:subject:date + :in-reply-to:cc:to:references; + bh=QhobKvrQnKopyyfz1G8HL5YxIvCFzaUx2LShO5K2Pz8=; + b=AGksop3OXva7sDDum3Bz2vTlD5Z4sdQmoGRVyYr1ebtBrxbl8BXwLU4OxsWlrNRmlE + R/GZ9I7/uA/BWZd6hTQumCg2o2B8xGIvkCn7Ag22MQMO3o+uTqrMcqHbqnf8R22u1s+P + z1OEqVIcXuMZe6S4mUR0H0xVCPmyTI7WAjO3bRhUp7q97wiFNQBku42c9Kh+AdWIEnRo + awy1JfO8Vw1maTEaJLXztcsoFmmJCTn4QcfkU+hgVLXb5Bd5VEu/LCwtinjYRjl2e6uw + CdQkS9bMPFeTmoeaF+KYl6lbAPMxsUqc5sBesfXYgaeoKdofxDp145pbyFjcQ1MDLGre + xgiw== +X-Gm-Message-State: AFeK/H23FJz4gIyPauJOeuV+1cUjW5pqbIcTyNlccdtain+JO9kT1KuCtyKLb+orrDB5fA== +X-Received: by 10.55.1.202 with SMTP id u71mr567488qkg.163.1490927194256; + Thu, 30 Mar 2017 19:26:34 -0700 (PDT) +Received: from mbp.fios-router.home + (pool-108-35-162-176.nwrknj.fios.verizon.net. [108.35.162.176]) + by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id + n21sm2677098qkh.16.2017.03.30.19.26.33 + (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); + Thu, 30 Mar 2017 19:26:33 -0700 (PDT) +From: Vladimir Zaytsev <vladimir.zaytsev@gmail.com> +Message-Id: <54F29F31-6E1B-478A-85B4-7BAE3703714A@gmail.com> +Content-Type: multipart/alternative; + boundary="Apple-Mail=_0AA53C73-85EC-445A-B161-82D0059F10C1" +Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 10.2 \(3259\)) +Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2017 22:26:31 -0400 +In-Reply-To: <CAD1TkXug2qFggztJL=Z7Thzx13E6ga-2Ps9yZFzonn2YjStrcg@mail.gmail.com> +To: Jared Lee Richardson <jaredr26@gmail.com> +References: <CALJP9GB2Fds8m9JpaVv0NxGDr579BtR9RMs7-KNSLkK8Mz7LoA@mail.gmail.com> + <CALJP9GAOgpSAhrrYFPRbGKZXwqZn_oDUmv6B7wcvwxcZufDd0g@mail.gmail.com> + <CALJP9GDkdxsvOZHJxzx+0pvjWBAkAswZCWXcp=zL7LNMRNfCOg@mail.gmail.com> + <CALJP9GBk4gG0H+tEJmEiz=0+LAQoe6_sL1Fv-BCJSfmvfY8PRA@mail.gmail.com> + <CALJP9GDH1xQ-cYc1SN6jejXDA49eiy_OR49XLLWd+=VdNo7ekA@mail.gmail.com> + <CAFVRnyq07qNappzwEmB_e+xCKPyCzHcWbnTDWCdeWjrsMMioLQ@mail.gmail.com> + <CAD1TkXsfb7VC7stXV33me1PDem750adpyETg-finKyjnV=Syxg@mail.gmail.com> + <61B9AE0D-5A58-4A72-8834-8ED164ED627F@gmail.com> + <CAD1TkXug2qFggztJL=Z7Thzx13E6ga-2Ps9yZFzonn2YjStrcg@mail.gmail.com> +X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3259) +X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.5 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00,DKIM_SIGNED, + DKIM_VALID, DKIM_VALID_AU, FREEMAIL_FROM, HTML_MESSAGE, + RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE, + RCVD_IN_SORBS_SPAM autolearn=no version=3.3.1 +X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.3.1 (2010-03-16) on + smtp1.linux-foundation.org +X-Mailman-Approved-At: Fri, 31 Mar 2017 02:31:10 +0000 +Cc: Bitcoin Protocol Discussion <bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org> +Subject: Re: [bitcoin-dev] High fees / centralization +X-BeenThere: bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org +X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 +Precedence: list +List-Id: Bitcoin Protocol Discussion <bitcoin-dev.lists.linuxfoundation.org> +List-Unsubscribe: <https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/options/bitcoin-dev>, + <mailto:bitcoin-dev-request@lists.linuxfoundation.org?subject=unsubscribe> +List-Archive: <http://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/bitcoin-dev/> +List-Post: <mailto:bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org> +List-Help: <mailto:bitcoin-dev-request@lists.linuxfoundation.org?subject=help> +List-Subscribe: <https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev>, + <mailto:bitcoin-dev-request@lists.linuxfoundation.org?subject=subscribe> +X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2017 02:26:35 -0000 + + +--Apple-Mail=_0AA53C73-85EC-445A-B161-82D0059F10C1 +Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable +Content-Type: text/plain; + charset=utf-8 + +Can there be a minimum amount to put up for mining ? I hope i=E2=80=99m = +not in violation with any ideology yet :) + +> On Mar 30, 2017, at 10:01 PM, Jared Lee Richardson = +<jaredr26@gmail.com> wrote: +>=20 +> That would be blockchain sharding. +>=20 +> Would be amazing if someone could figure out how to do it trustlessly. = + So far I'm not convinced it is possible to resolve the conflicts = +between the shards and commit transactions between shards. +>=20 +> On Thu, Mar 30, 2017 at 6:39 PM, Vladimir Zaytsev = +<vladimir.zaytsev@gmail.com <mailto:vladimir.zaytsev@gmail.com>> wrote: +> There must be a way to organize =E2=80=9Cbranches=E2=80=9D of smaller = +activity to join main tree after they grow. Outsider a bit, I see going = +circles here, but not everything must be accepted in the chain. Good = +idea as it is, it=E2=80=99s just too early to record every sight=E2=80=A6.= + +>=20 +>=20 +>=20 +>> On Mar 30, 2017, at 5:52 PM, Jared Lee Richardson via bitcoin-dev = +<bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org = +<mailto:bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org>> wrote: +>>=20 +>> > Further, we are very far from the point (in my appraisal) where = +fees are high enough to block home users from using the network. +>>=20 +>> This depends entirely on the usecase entirely. Most likely even = +without a blocksize increase, home purchases will be large enough to fit = +on the blocksize in the forseeable future. Microtransactions(<$0.25) on = +the other hand aren't viable no matter what we try to do - There's just = +too much data. +>>=20 +>> Most likely, transaction fees above $1 per tx will become unappealing = +for many consumers, and above $10 is likely to be niche-level. It is = +hard to say with any certainty, but average credit card fees give us = +some indications to work with - $1.2 on a $30 transaction, though paid = +by the business and not the consumer. +>>=20 +>> Without blocksize increases, fees higher than $1/tx are basically = +inevitable, most likely before 2020. Running a node only costs = +$10/month if that. If we were going to favor node operational costs = +that highly in the weighting, we'd better have a pretty solid = +justification with mathematical models or examples. +>>=20 +>> > We should not throw away the core innovation of monetary = +sovereignty in pursuit of supporting 0.1% of the world's daily = +transactions. +>>=20 +>> If we can easily have both, why not have both? +>>=20 +>> An altcoin with both will take Bitcoin's monetary sovereignty crown = +by default. No crown, no usecases, no Bitcoin. +>>=20 +>>=20 +>=20 +>=20 + + +--Apple-Mail=_0AA53C73-85EC-445A-B161-82D0059F10C1 +Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable +Content-Type: text/html; + charset=utf-8 + +<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html = +charset=3Dutf-8"></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; = +-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" = +class=3D"">Can there be a minimum amount to put up for mining ? I hope = +i=E2=80=99m not in violation with any ideology yet :)<div class=3D""><br = +class=3D""><div><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div class=3D"">On = +Mar 30, 2017, at 10:01 PM, Jared Lee Richardson <<a = +href=3D"mailto:jaredr26@gmail.com" class=3D"">jaredr26@gmail.com</a>> = +wrote:</div><br class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=3D""><div = +dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"">That would be blockchain sharding.<br = +class=3D""><br class=3D"">Would be amazing if someone could figure out = +how to do it trustlessly. So far I'm not convinced it is possible = +to resolve the conflicts between the shards and commit transactions = +between shards.</div><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br class=3D""><div = +class=3D"gmail_quote">On Thu, Mar 30, 2017 at 6:39 PM, Vladimir Zaytsev = +<span dir=3D"ltr" class=3D""><<a = +href=3D"mailto:vladimir.zaytsev@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank" = +class=3D"">vladimir.zaytsev@gmail.com</a>></span> wrote:<br = +class=3D""><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 = +.8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div = +style=3D"word-wrap:break-word" class=3D""><div class=3D"">There must be = +a way to organize =E2=80=9Cbranches=E2=80=9D of smaller activity to join = +main tree after they grow. Outsider a bit, I see going circles here, but = +not everything must be accepted in the chain. Good idea as it is, it=E2=80= +=99s just too early to record every sight=E2=80=A6.</div><span = +class=3D""><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D""><br = +class=3D""></div><br class=3D""><div class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" = +class=3D""><div class=3D"">On Mar 30, 2017, at 5:52 PM, Jared Lee = +Richardson via bitcoin-dev <<a = +href=3D"mailto:bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org" target=3D"_blank" = +class=3D"">bitcoin-dev@lists.<wbr class=3D"">linuxfoundation.org</a>> = +wrote:</div><br = +class=3D"m_1610363654403453300Apple-interchange-newline"><div = +class=3D""><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"">> <span = +style=3D"font-size:12.8px" class=3D"">Further, we are very far from the = +point (in my appraisal) where fees are high enough to block home users = +from using the network.</span><div class=3D""><br class=3D"">This = +depends entirely on the usecase entirely. Most likely even without = +a blocksize increase, home purchases will be large enough to fit on the = +blocksize in the forseeable future. Microtransactions(<$0.25) = +on the other hand aren't viable no matter what we try to do - There's = +just too much data.</div><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br = +class=3D""></div><div class=3D"gmail_extra">Most likely, transaction = +fees above $1 per tx will become unappealing for many consumers, and = +above $10 is likely to be niche-level. It is hard to say with any = +certainty, but average credit card fees give us some indications to work = +with - $1.2 on a $30 transaction, though paid by the business and not = +the consumer.<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">Without blocksize increases, = +fees higher than $1/tx are basically inevitable, most likely before = +2020. Running a node only costs $10/month if that. If we = +were going to favor node operational costs that highly in the weighting, = +we'd better have a pretty solid justification with mathematical models = +or examples.</div><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br = +class=3D"">> <span style=3D"font-size:12.8px" class=3D"">We = +should not throw away the core innovation of monetary sovereignty in = +pursuit of supporting 0.1% of the world's daily transactions.<br = +class=3D""></span><br class=3D"">If we can easily have both, why not = +have both?<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">An altcoin with both will take = +Bitcoin's monetary sovereignty crown by default. No crown, no = +usecases, no Bitcoin.</div><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br = +class=3D""></div><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br = +class=3D""></div></div></div></blockquote></div><br = +class=3D""></span></div></blockquote></div><br class=3D""></div> +</div></blockquote></div><br class=3D""></div></body></html>= + +--Apple-Mail=_0AA53C73-85EC-445A-B161-82D0059F10C1-- + |