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| author | waxwing/ AdamISZ <ekaggata@gmail.com> | 2024-10-11 08:01:52 -0700 |
|---|---|---|
| committer | bitcoindev <bitcoindev@googlegroups.com> | 2024-10-11 08:23:54 -0700 |
| commit | 4068ec4a6b615ed29020ba9512f7171d4c3f23c2 (patch) | |
| tree | 041b7941e53b6aaca90568ff9d97354c7118073d | |
| parent | 4d41a1ed9d86d76c147435b69339d43a19f0c37f (diff) | |
| download | pi-bitcoindev-4068ec4a6b615ed29020ba9512f7171d4c3f23c2.tar.gz pi-bitcoindev-4068ec4a6b615ed29020ba9512f7171d4c3f23c2.zip | |
Re: [bitcoindev] Demonstrating Pinning Attacks under Real-World Conditions
| -rw-r--r-- | 62/43fb9f54c664278d2f02b37c70cf7bf23c4c46 | 480 |
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charset="UTF-8" +Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable + +Antoine, + +Perhaps it would be an idea to write a gist or some other public facing=20 +page with what you need from volunteers, so it's kind of step by step? +Unlike Peter in this thread, I think most people would want/have to set up= +=20 +new nodes to do this. + +You have said: Current and default installs of Core/btcd + lnd/cln/ldk . I= +=20 +know that e.g. Core has some pretty non-trivial choices but I guess we can= +=20 +stick religiously to whatever is default. + +But other details like: +amount in channels - does it matter? +How many channels? Channels of specific types (thinking e.g. unannounced) +Should volunteers have channels with each other? is there any aspect of=20 +topology you require? +Network connectivity - I guess it's not important, but just in case worth= +=20 +mentioning, e.g. should/should not use Tor etc. + +Forgive me if some of the questions are ignorant, I have not paid a ton of= +=20 +attention to the discussion around these attacks. + +waxwing/AdamISZ +On Thursday, October 10, 2024 at 6:29:02=E2=80=AFPM UTC-6 Antoine Riard wro= +te: + +> Hi all, +> +> > If you have an on-chain donation address on the OTS website (?), I'll= +=20 +> make a +> > $100 donation now, it's a nice tool. And for the justice=20 +> transaction...well +> > for some scenarios you can use the latest valid commitment state to pin= +=20 +> no risk +> > of being slashed by a justice transaction. +> +> Been late on demonstrating a real-world pinning attack against a=20 +> production lightning +> node. But I swear it's real sport having to jungle with more than one=20 +> category of +> exploit to soundly test. +> +> OTS is a great project. I'll make a donation to it of 1 gram of gold or= +=20 +> the equivalent +> in fiats or satoshis at settlement (as $100 sounds to be almost equal to = +1=20 +> gram of gold, +> i.e $84.66 those days) for each month late on doing a demonstrationg of= +=20 +> real-world pinning +> attack, as a lateness penalty. +> +> Beyond it's a great tool to make notarization of any kind of digital info= +,=20 +> inside the +> chain where for every block there are probably two-digit terawatt hours= +=20 +> burnt, which +> starts to be a f*cking lot of hydro power plants. +> +> More generally, I called since late 2020 at least for making real-world= +=20 +> demonstration +> of pinning attacks against lightning nodes, among others types of=20 +> cross-layers attacks, +> At the exception of 2 ligthning protocol devs if my memory is correct, al= +l=20 +> the others +> ones since then have shunned away from participating in a real-world demo= +,=20 +> and Peter +> Todd was the first one to consent and make available a lightning node=20 +> available for +> real-world demos in a "black box" fashion (indeed, it's far easier to=20 +> execute exploits +> on testing envs fully set by the researcher...). +> +> In the future, I believe it can only be great if bitcoin security exploit= +s=20 +> are gauged +> more or less on the lines of artifacts available, evaluated and=20 +> reproduced, as done=20 +> usually by major infosec confs. +> +> Best, +> Antoine +> ots hash: 9d227f7832154c4c8bce9fce260ac84537489c1bc8c4b8c2ba990ceb197c84f= +c +> Le mardi 3 septembre 2024 =C3=A0 21:13:46 UTC+1, Antoine Riard a =C3=A9cr= +it : +> +>> > That also happens to be my Alice OpenTimestamps calendar, in=20 +>> production, so +>> > please don't do anything you expect to be CPU or RAM intensive. But if= +=20 +>> you +>> > accidentally take down the server, not the end of the world: OTS is a= +=20 +>> very +>> > redundant protocol and one calendar going down for a few hours is=20 +>> unlikely to +>> > do any harm. +>> >=20 +>> > It has about $400 of outgoing capacity at the moment, and $2000=20 +>> inbound. It +>> > gets hardly any donations at the moment, so if you manage to knock LND= +=20 +>> offline +>> > that's no big deal. +>> >=20 +>> > That's not my money - it's donations to the OTS calendars that I have= +=20 +>> no right +>> > to spend - so I'll ask you to pay for any expenses incurred by it duri= +ng +>> > testing, and make a $100 net donation when you're done testing to make= +=20 +>> it +>> > worthwhile for the OTS community. If you manage to lose more than that= +=20 +>> on +>> > justice transactions, I'll consider that a donation. :) +>> +>> Many thanks Peter for that. +>> +>> No worries, I won't play with CPU or RAM, it's just all the=20 +>> transaction-relay +>> and mempool logic that one can interfere with. I'll make you whole of th= +e=20 +>> $2400 +>> if the LND node goes down too hard, though I'm just looking for a node= +=20 +>> running +>> on mainnet, for a pinning the attacker has two open to channels and=20 +>> re-balance +>> the liquidity at its advantage a bit. I'll provide the liquidity by=20 +>> myself. +>> +>> If you have an on-chain donation address on the OTS website (?), I'll=20 +>> make a +>> $100 donation now, it's a nice tool. And for the justice=20 +>> transaction...well +>> for some scenarios you can use the latest valid commitment state to pin= +=20 +>> no risk +>> of being slashed by a justice transaction. +>> +>> Best, +>> Antoine +>> ots hash: 19d9b61ed5238e2922205a0a0194e0830b260a691f45b4189b1d145f72c9e0= +31 +>> +>> Le mar. 3 sept. 2024 =C3=A0 13:58, Peter Todd <pe...@petertodd.org> a = +=C3=A9crit : +>> +>>> On Tue, Aug 27, 2024 at 02:10:15PM -0700, Antoine Riard wrote: +>>> > My utmost pleasure to demonstrate some pinning attacks on nodes under= +=20 +>>> > real-world conditions. +>>> +>>> Antoine Riard: until Oct 1st, you have permission to test your attacks= +=20 +>>> against +>>> my Lightning node running at: +>>> +>>> 023345274dd80a01c0e80ec4892818878...@alice.opentimestamps.org:9735= +=20 +>>> <http://023345274dd80a01c0e80ec48928188783f9bc5281be8f5057c050492f10711= +a5b@alice.opentimestamps.org:9735> +>>> +>>> That also happens to be my Alice OpenTimestamps calendar, in production= +,=20 +>>> so +>>> please don't do anything you expect to be CPU or RAM intensive. But if= +=20 +>>> you +>>> accidentally take down the server, not the end of the world: OTS is a= +=20 +>>> very +>>> redundant protocol and one calendar going down for a few hours is=20 +>>> unlikely to +>>> do any harm. +>>> +>>> It has about $400 of outgoing capacity at the moment, and $2000 inbound= +.=20 +>>> It +>>> gets hardly any donations at the moment, so if you manage to knock LND= +=20 +>>> offline +>>> that's no big deal. +>>> +>>> That's not my money - it's donations to the OTS calendars that I have n= +o=20 +>>> right +>>> to spend - so I'll ask you to pay for any expenses incurred by it durin= +g +>>> testing, and make a $100 net donation when you're done testing to make = +it +>>> worthwhile for the OTS community. If you manage to lose more than that = +on +>>> justice transactions, I'll consider that a donation. :) +>>> +>>> --=20 +>>> https://petertodd.org 'peter'[:-1]@petertodd.org +>>> +>> + +--=20 +You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= +Bitcoin Development Mailing List" group. +To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= +mail to bitcoindev+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. +To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/= +bitcoindev/9682d905-886c-4deb-924c-6461f4b67537n%40googlegroups.com. + +------=_Part_3965_830052607.1728658912116 +Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" +Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable + +<div>Antoine,</div><div><br /></div><div>Perhaps it would be an idea to wri= +te a gist or some other public facing page with what you need from voluntee= +rs, so it's kind of step by step?</div><div>Unlike Peter in this thread, I = +think most people would want/have to set up new nodes to do this.<br /></di= +v><div><br /></div><div>You have said: Current and default installs of Core= +/btcd + lnd/cln/ldk . I know that e.g. Core has some pretty non-trivial cho= +ices but I guess we can stick religiously to whatever is default.<br /></di= +v><div><br /></div><div>But other details like:</div><div>amount in channel= +s - does it matter?</div><div>How many channels? Channels of specific types= + (thinking e.g. unannounced)</div><div>Should volunteers have channels with= + each other? is there any aspect of topology you require?</div><div>Network= + connectivity - I guess it's not important, but just in case worth mentioni= +ng, e.g. should/should not use Tor etc.</div><div><br /></div><div>Forgive = +me if some of the questions are ignorant, I have not paid a ton of attentio= +n to the discussion around these attacks.<br /></div><div><br /></div>waxwi= +ng/AdamISZ<br /><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"auto" class=3D"gmail= +_attr">On Thursday, October 10, 2024 at 6:29:02=E2=80=AFPM UTC-6 Antoine Ri= +ard wrote:<br/></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin: 0 0= + 0 0.8ex; border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); padding-left: 1ex;">Hi= + all,<br><br>> If you have an on-chain donation address on the OTS websi= +te (?), I'll make a<br>> $100 donation now, it's a nice tool. An= +d for the justice transaction...well<br>> for some scenarios you can use= + the latest valid commitment state to pin no risk<br>> of being slashed = +by a justice transaction.<br><br>Been late on demonstrating a real-world pi= +nning attack against a production lightning<br>node. But I swear it's r= +eal sport having to jungle with more than one category of<br>exploit to sou= +ndly test.<br><br>OTS is a great project. I'll make a donation to it of= + 1 gram of gold or the equivalent<br>in fiats or satoshis at settlement (as= + $100 sounds to be almost equal to 1 gram of gold,<br>i.e $84.66 those days= +) for each month late on doing a demonstrationg of real-world pinning<br>at= +tack, as a lateness penalty.<br><br>Beyond it's a great tool to make no= +tarization of any kind of digital info, inside the<br>chain where for every= + block there are probably two-digit terawatt hours burnt, which<br>starts t= +o be a f*cking lot of hydro power plants.<br><br>More generally, I called s= +ince late 2020 at least for making real-world demonstration<br>of pinning a= +ttacks against lightning nodes, among others types of cross-layers attacks,= +<br>At the exception of 2 ligthning protocol devs if my memory is correct, = +all the others<br>ones since then have shunned away from participating in a= + real-world demo, and Peter<br>Todd was the first one to consent and make a= +vailable a lightning node available for<br>real-world demos in a "blac= +k box" fashion (indeed, it's far easier to execute exploits<br>on = +testing envs fully set by the researcher...).<br><br>In the future, I belie= +ve it can only be great if bitcoin security exploits are gauged<br>more or = +less on the lines of artifacts available, evaluated and reproduced, as done= + <br>usually by major infosec confs.<br><br>Best,<br>Antoine<br>ots hash: 9= +d227f7832154c4c8bce9fce260ac84537489c1bc8c4b8c2ba990ceb197c84fc<br><div cla= +ss=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"auto" class=3D"gmail_attr">Le mardi 3 septem= +bre 2024 =C3=A0 21:13:46 UTC+1, Antoine Riard a =C3=A9crit=C2=A0:<br></div>= +<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 0.8ex;border-left:1= +px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr">> That also= + happens to be my Alice OpenTimestamps calendar, in production, so<br>> = +please don't do anything you expect to be CPU or RAM intensive. But if = +you<br>> accidentally take down the server, not the end of the world: OT= +S is a very<br>> redundant protocol and one calendar going down for a fe= +w hours is unlikely to<br>> do any harm.<br>> <br>> It has about $= +400 of outgoing capacity at the moment, and $2000 inbound. It<br>> gets = +hardly any donations at the moment, so if you manage to knock LND offline<b= +r>> that's no big deal.<br>> <br>> That's not my money - i= +t's donations to the OTS calendars that I have no right<br>> to spen= +d - so I'll ask you to pay for any expenses incurred by it during<br>&g= +t; testing, and make a $100 net donation when you're done testing to ma= +ke it<br>> worthwhile for the OTS community. If you manage to lose more = +than that on<br>> justice transactions, I'll consider that a donatio= +n. :)<br><br></div><div dir=3D"ltr">Many thanks Peter for that.<br><br>No w= +orries, I won't play with CPU or RAM, it's just all the transaction= +-relay<br>and mempool logic that one can interfere with. I'll make you = +whole of the $2400<br>if the LND node goes down too hard, though I'm ju= +st looking for a node running<br>on mainnet, for a pinning the attacker has= + two open to channels and re-balance<br>the liquidity at its advantage a bi= +t. I'll provide the liquidity by myself.<br><br>If you have an on-chain= + donation address on the OTS website (?), I'll make a<br>$100 donation = +now, it's a nice tool. And for the justice transaction...well<br>for so= +me scenarios you can use the latest valid commitment state to pin no risk<b= +r>of being slashed by a justice transaction.<br><br>Best,<br>Antoine<br>ots= + hash: 19d9b61ed5238e2922205a0a0194e0830b260a691f45b4189b1d145f72c9e031<br>= +</div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">= +Le=C2=A0mar. 3 sept. 2024 =C3=A0=C2=A013:58, Peter Todd <<a rel=3D"nofol= +low">pe...@petertodd.org</a>> a =C3=A9crit=C2=A0:<br></div><blockquote c= +lass=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1p= +x;border-left-style:solid;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1= +ex">On Tue, Aug 27, 2024 at 02:10:15PM -0700, Antoine Riard wrote:<br> +> My utmost pleasure to demonstrate some pinning attacks on nodes under = +<br> +> real-world conditions.<br> +<br> +Antoine Riard: until Oct 1st, you have permission to test your attacks agai= +nst<br> +my Lightning node running at:<br> +<br> +=C2=A0 =C2=A0 <a href=3D"http://023345274dd80a01c0e80ec48928188783f9bc5281b= +e8f5057c050492f10711a5b@alice.opentimestamps.org:9735" rel=3D"noreferrer no= +follow" target=3D"_blank" data-saferedirecturl=3D"https://www.google.com/ur= +l?hl=3Den&q=3Dhttp://023345274dd80a01c0e80ec48928188783f9bc5281be8f5057= +c050492f10711a5b@alice.opentimestamps.org:9735&source=3Dgmail&ust= +=3D1728744712253000&usg=3DAOvVaw127VDKb-dISVrO7VEc7ONq">023345274dd80a0= +1c0e80ec4892818878...@alice.opentimestamps.org:9735</a><br> +<br> +That also happens to be my Alice OpenTimestamps calendar, in production, so= +<br> +please don't do anything you expect to be CPU or RAM intensive. But if = +you<br> +accidentally take down the server, not the end of the world: OTS is a very<= +br> +redundant protocol and one calendar going down for a few hours is unlikely = +to<br> +do any harm.<br> +<br> +It has about $400 of outgoing capacity at the moment, and $2000 inbound. It= +<br> +gets hardly any donations at the moment, so if you manage to knock LND offl= +ine<br> +that's no big deal.<br> +<br> +That's not my money - it's donations to the OTS calendars that I ha= +ve no right<br> +to spend - so I'll ask you to pay for any expenses incurred by it durin= +g<br> +testing, and make a $100 net donation when you're done testing to make = +it<br> +worthwhile for the OTS community. If you manage to lose more than that on<b= +r> +justice transactions, I'll consider that a donation. :)<br> +<br> +-- <br> +<a href=3D"https://petertodd.org" rel=3D"noreferrer nofollow" target=3D"_bl= +ank" data-saferedirecturl=3D"https://www.google.com/url?hl=3Den&q=3Dhtt= +ps://petertodd.org&source=3Dgmail&ust=3D1728744712253000&usg=3D= +AOvVaw1TSX524BYOC-2Cgqq9abEf">https://petertodd.org</a> 'peter'[:-1= +]@<a href=3D"http://petertodd.org" rel=3D"noreferrer nofollow" target=3D"_b= +lank" data-saferedirecturl=3D"https://www.google.com/url?hl=3Den&q=3Dht= +tp://petertodd.org&source=3Dgmail&ust=3D1728744712253000&usg=3D= +AOvVaw3VyZmFH2Wf-Xp6QH2J48pG">petertodd.org</a><br> +</blockquote></div> +</blockquote></div></blockquote></div> + +<p></p> + +-- <br /> +You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups &= +quot;Bitcoin Development Mailing List" group.<br /> +To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= +mail to <a href=3D"mailto:bitcoindev+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com">bitcoind= +ev+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com</a>.<br /> +To view this discussion on the web visit <a href=3D"https://groups.google.c= +om/d/msgid/bitcoindev/9682d905-886c-4deb-924c-6461f4b67537n%40googlegroups.= +com?utm_medium=3Demail&utm_source=3Dfooter">https://groups.google.com/d/msg= +id/bitcoindev/9682d905-886c-4deb-924c-6461f4b67537n%40googlegroups.com</a>.= +<br /> + +------=_Part_3965_830052607.1728658912116-- + +------=_Part_3964_1363283815.1728658912116-- + |