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| author | Greg Sanders <gsanders87@gmail.com> | 2018-01-08 10:32:58 -0500 |
|---|---|---|
| committer | bitcoindev <bitcoindev@gnusha.org> | 2018-01-08 15:33:21 +0000 |
| commit | e002efe7306f56beeb4f907f2cb96c03db8a7ee1 (patch) | |
| tree | ebaa67024e4ef53b881da731545fe3a3cc436a42 /95 | |
| parent | 248246cc15a2c72727f6ba98d17787e9ceb025c0 (diff) | |
| download | pi-bitcoindev-e002efe7306f56beeb4f907f2cb96c03db8a7ee1.tar.gz pi-bitcoindev-e002efe7306f56beeb4f907f2cb96c03db8a7ee1.zip | |
Re: [bitcoin-dev] BIP 39: Add language identifier strings for wordlists
Diffstat (limited to '95')
| -rw-r--r-- | 95/1532c8579107cca3cf6d95a745de57991ae8bd | 631 |
1 files changed, 631 insertions, 0 deletions
diff --git a/95/1532c8579107cca3cf6d95a745de57991ae8bd b/95/1532c8579107cca3cf6d95a745de57991ae8bd new file mode 100644 index 000000000..096d21c34 --- /dev/null +++ b/95/1532c8579107cca3cf6d95a745de57991ae8bd @@ -0,0 +1,631 @@ +Return-Path: <gsanders87@gmail.com> +Received: from smtp1.linuxfoundation.org (smtp1.linux-foundation.org + [172.17.192.35]) + by mail.linuxfoundation.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D63E4FAB + for <bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org>; + Mon, 8 Jan 2018 15:33:21 +0000 (UTC) +X-Greylist: whitelisted by SQLgrey-1.7.6 +Received: from mail-wm0-f54.google.com (mail-wm0-f54.google.com [74.125.82.54]) + by smtp1.linuxfoundation.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4CE81557 + for <bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org>; + Mon, 8 Jan 2018 15:33:20 +0000 (UTC) +Received: by mail-wm0-f54.google.com with SMTP id 9so14826993wme.4 + for <bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org>; + Mon, 08 Jan 2018 07:33:20 -0800 (PST) +DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; 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+ Mon, 08 Jan 2018 07:33:18 -0800 (PST) +MIME-Version: 1.0 +Received: by 10.80.204.7 with HTTP; Mon, 8 Jan 2018 07:32:58 -0800 (PST) +In-Reply-To: <CABXVU6aa-CHzyWOgefzz5XgTS8vNUOUPbo4aWH4i0FZH=xFr9w@mail.gmail.com> +References: <57f5fcd8644c6f6472cd6a91144a6152@nym.zone> + <d05bfa26-4f3d-77d1-5801-9ad59497f334@satoshilabs.com> + <CACvEmnGcN+VtgK0MeRPBevRoMkyJrMOBQKLZP4NnLBc5+q8Cyg@mail.gmail.com> + <eb643e5734bceeb918d116fb75c0d4b3@nym.zone> + <CAB3F3DvcjSRHLYv16SsSb22TxyfdMrsKW-Z4pChEiuTmhG3KYQ@mail.gmail.com> + <CA+vKqYfo-G4oS4jZpL1_7sx9aTVKcje9NdjCs3Pu9JwW5-GTMQ@mail.gmail.com> + <CAB3F3DsifkaCVE1xFvvn8+b-ixpq-NqmGd1vAS8V8niB9YLQsA@mail.gmail.com> + <CA+vKqYckHe-8dfZw0ktxNvqQP4XYHHKUJwfwsYhvYyj3BfOCkg@mail.gmail.com> + <CABXVU6aa-CHzyWOgefzz5XgTS8vNUOUPbo4aWH4i0FZH=xFr9w@mail.gmail.com> +From: Greg Sanders <gsanders87@gmail.com> +Date: Mon, 8 Jan 2018 10:32:58 -0500 +Message-ID: <CAB3F3DskrNYLBrq58saQD1++Tad3JS11vCrXdJcpgqyNwfu8pg@mail.gmail.com> +To: AJ West <ajwest@gmail.com> +Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="94eb2c0c387080c70e05624584f5" +X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.0 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00,DKIM_SIGNED, + DKIM_VALID,DKIM_VALID_AU,FREEMAIL_ENVFROM_END_DIGIT,FREEMAIL_FROM, + HTML_MESSAGE, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE, URIBL_BLACK autolearn=no version=3.3.1 +X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.3.1 (2010-03-16) on + smtp1.linux-foundation.org +Cc: Bitcoin Protocol Discussion <bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org> +Subject: Re: [bitcoin-dev] BIP 39: Add language identifier strings for + wordlists +X-BeenThere: bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org +X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 +Precedence: list +List-Id: Bitcoin Protocol Discussion <bitcoin-dev.lists.linuxfoundation.org> +List-Unsubscribe: <https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/options/bitcoin-dev>, + <mailto:bitcoin-dev-request@lists.linuxfoundation.org?subject=unsubscribe> +List-Archive: <http://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/bitcoin-dev/> +List-Post: <mailto:bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org> +List-Help: <mailto:bitcoin-dev-request@lists.linuxfoundation.org?subject=help> +List-Subscribe: <https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev>, + <mailto:bitcoin-dev-request@lists.linuxfoundation.org?subject=subscribe> +X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 08 Jan 2018 15:33:22 -0000 + +--94eb2c0c387080c70e05624584f5 +Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" +Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable + +>I'm shocked that so many people are resisting the idea that just *maybe* t= +here +could be people in other parts of the world who do not want to use or +cannot use the strict set of latin characters and words from the English +language. + + +You're mistaking concern for users potentially losing money with disdain +for them. I can read a few languages, yet I would not advise users to use a +wordlist that might not have support across multiple wallet +implementations, resulting in lock-in or worse. + +If I'm wrong, great, more people can use software strictly in their native +language in a safe manner! + +On Mon, Jan 8, 2018 at 10:26 AM, AJ West <ajwest@gmail.com> wrote: + +> Greg yes, there were already examples in this very thread of people +> explaining how they use languages other than English. I'm shocked that so +> many people are resisting the idea that just *maybe* there could be +> people in other parts of the world who do not want to use or cannot use t= +he +> strict set of latin characters and words from the English language. +> +> I agree with Sjors and maybe I'm simplifying too much, but can't we just +> map an existing ISO/UTF language character standard to the seeds? Why is +> there a word list at all? Choose a flexible encoding standard, create a +> clever map to the bytes, make sure to include a checksum. +> +> As an aside, I know there are some conventions which add space for error +> correction but I personally don't love the idea of somebody inputting wha= +t +> they think is the proper seed, only to have it auto-corrected and thus +> reinforcing their erroneously saved/written seed backup. +> +> Pavol, why do you say "I learned that it was something I should've been +> more persistently against?" I still can't see any good arguments as to wh= +y +> we should limit this to English other than "It's easier to support a sing= +le +> language" which comes at the cost of "It's hard for me to backup my seed" +> for those who don't speak English. +> +> On Mon, Jan 8, 2018 at 10:23 AM, Matias Alejo Garcia via bitcoin-dev < +> bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org> wrote: +> +>> > Let me re-phrase: Is it a known thing for users to actually use it? +>> +>> yes. Based on language stats from the app stores, roughly 30% to 40% of +>> Copay users have their backup on a language +>> other than English, and we constantly get requests to support new +>> languages in BIP39. +>> +>> On Mon, Jan 8, 2018 at 11:54 AM, Greg Sanders <gsanders87@gmail.com> +>> wrote: +>> +>>> Let me re-phrase: Is it a known thing for users to actually use it? +>>> +>>> On Mon, Jan 8, 2018 at 9:52 AM, Matias Alejo Garcia <ematiu@gmail.com> +>>> wrote: +>>> +>>>> +>>>> +>>>> On Mon, Jan 8, 2018 at 11:34 AM, Greg Sanders via bitcoin-dev < +>>>> bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org> wrote: +>>>> +>>>>> Has anyone actually used the multilingual support in bip39? +>>>>> +>>>> +>>>> +>>>> Copay (and all its clones) use it. +>>>> +>>>> +>>>> +>>>> +>>>> +>>>>> +>>>>> If a feature of the standard has not been(widely?) used in years, and +>>>>> isn't supported in any major wallet(?), it seems indicative it was a +>>>>> mistake to add it in the first place, since it's a footgun in the mak= +ing +>>>>> for some poor sap who can't even read English letters when almost all +>>>>> documentation is written in English. +>>>>> +>>>>> On Mon, Jan 8, 2018 at 6:13 AM, nullius via bitcoin-dev < +>>>>> bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org> wrote: +>>>>> +>>>>>> On 2018-01-08 at 07:35:52 +0000, =E6=9C=A8=E3=83=8E=E4=B8=8B=E3=81= +=98=E3=82=87=E3=81=AA <kinoshitajona@gmail.com> +>>>>>> wrote: +>>>>>> +>>>>>>> This is very sad. +>>>>>>> +>>>>>>> The number one problem in Japan with BIP39 seeds is with English +>>>>>>> words. +>>>>>>> +>>>>>>> I have seen a 60 year old Japanese man writing down his phrase +>>>>>>> (because he kept on failing recovery), and watched him write down "= +aneter" +>>>>>>> for "amateur"... +>>>>>>> +>>>>>>> [...] +>>>>>>> +>>>>>>> If you understand English and can spell, you read a word, your brai= +n +>>>>>>> processes the word, and you can spell it on your own when writing d= +own. +>>>>>>> Not many Japanese people can do that, so they need to copy letter f= +or +>>>>>>> letter, taking a long time, and still messing up on occasion. +>>>>>>> +>>>>>>> [...] +>>>>>>> +>>>>>>> Defining "everyone should only use English, because ASCII is easier +>>>>>>> to plan for" is not a good way to move forward as a currency. +>>>>>>> +>>>>>> +>>>>>> Well said. Thank you for telling of these experiences. Now please, +>>>>>> let=E2=80=99s put the shoe on the other foot. +>>>>>> +>>>>>> I ask everybody who wants an English-only mnemonic standard to +>>>>>> entrust *their own money* to their abilities to very, very carefully= + write +>>>>>> this down=E2=80=94then later, type it back in: +>>>>>> +>>>>>> =E3=81=99=E3=81=95=E3=82=93 =E3=81=9F=E3=82=93=E3=82=8D =E3=82=8A=E3= +=82=86=E3=81=86 =E3=81=97=E3=82=82=E3=82=93 =E3=81=A6=E3=81=84=E3=81=8A=E3= +=82=93 =E3=81=97=E3=81=A8=E3=81=86 +>>>>>> =E3=81=A8=E3=81=93=E3=82=84 =E3=81=AF=E3=82=84=E3=81=84 =E3=81=8A=E3= +=81=86=E3=81=95=E3=81=BE =E3=81=BB=E3=81=8F=E3=82=8D =E3=81=91=E3=81=A1=E3= +=82=83=E3=81=A3=E3=81=B5 =E3=81=9F=E3=82=82=E3=81=A4 +>>>>>> +>>>>>> (Approximate translation: =E2=80=9CWhatever would you do if Bitcoin= + had been +>>>>>> invented by somebody named Satoshi Nakamoto?=E2=80=9D) +>>>>>> +>>>>>> No, wait: That is only a 12-word mnemonic. We are probably talking +>>>>>> about a Trezor; so now, hey you there, stake the backup of your life= +=E2=80=99s +>>>>>> savings on your ability to handwrite *this*: +>>>>>> +>>>>>> =E3=81=AB=E3=81=82=E3=81=86 =E3=81=97=E3=81=B2=E3=82=87=E3=81=86 =E3= +=81=AB=E3=82=93=E3=81=99=E3=81=86 =E3=81=B2=E3=81=88=E3=82=8B =E3=81=8B=E3= +=81=84=E3=81=93=E3=81=86 =E3=81=84=E3=81=AE=E3=82=8B =E3=81=AD=E3=82=93=E3= +=81=97 =E3=81=AF=E3=81=82=E3=81=95=E3=82=93 =E3=81=B2=E3=81=93=E3=81=8F +>>>>>> =E3=81=A8=E3=81=86=E3=81=8F =E3=81=8D=E3=82=82=E3=81=9F=E3=82=81=E3= +=81=97 =E3=81=9D=E3=81=AA=E3=81=9F =E3=81=93=E3=81=AA=E3=81=93=E3=81=AA =E3= +=81=AB=E3=81=95=E3=82=93=E3=81=8B=E3=81=9F=E3=82=93=E3=81=9D =E3=82=8D=E3= +=82=93=E3=81=8D =E3=82=81=E3=81=84=E3=81=82=E3=82=93 =E3=81=BF=E3=82=8F=E3= +=81=8F +>>>>>> =E3=81=B8=E3=81=93=E3=82=80 =E3=81=99=E3=81=B2=E3=82=87=E3=81=86 =E3= +=81=8A=E3=82=84=E3=82=86=E3=81=B2 =E3=81=B5=E3=81=9B=E3=81=8F =E3=81=91=E3= +=81=95=E3=81=8D =E3=82=81=E3=81=84=E3=81=8D=E3=82=87=E3=81=8F =E3=81=93=E3= +=82=93=E3=81=BE=E3=81=91 +>>>>>> +>>>>>> Ready to bet your money on *that* as a backup phrase in your own +>>>>>> hands? No? Then please, stop demanding that others risk *their* mo= +ney on +>>>>>> the inverse case. +>>>>>> +>>>>>> ---- +>>>>>> +>>>>>> If you cheat here by having studied Japanese, then remember that man= +y +>>>>>> Japanese people know English and other European languages, too. The= +n think +>>>>>> of how much money would be lost by your non-Japanese-literate family= + and +>>>>>> friends=E2=80=94if BIP 39 had only Japanese wordlists, and your folk= +s needed to +>>>>>> wrestle with the above phrases as their =E2=80=9Cmnemonics=E2=80=9D. +>>>>>> +>>>>>> In such cases, the phrases cannot be called =E2=80=9Cmnemonics=E2=80= +=9D at all. A +>>>>>> =E2=80=9Cmnemonic=E2=80=9D implies aid to memory. Gibberish in a wh= +olly alien writing +>>>>>> system is much worse even than transcribing pseudorandom hex strings= +. The +>>>>>> Japanese man in the quoted story, who wrote =E2=80=9Caneter=E2=80=9D= + for =E2=80=9Camateur=E2=80=9D, was not +>>>>>> dealing with a *mnemonic*: He was using the world=E2=80=99s most in= +efficient means +>>>>>> of making cryptic bitstrings *less* userfriendly. +>>>>>> +>>>>>> ---- +>>>>>> +>>>>>> I began this thread with a quite simple request: Is =E2=80=9C=E6=97= +=A5=E6=9C=AC=E8=AA=9E=E2=80=9D an +>>>>>> appropriate string for identifying the Japanese language to Japanese +>>>>>> users? And what of the other strings I posted for other languages? +>>>>>> +>>>>>> I asked this as an implementer working on my own instance of the +>>>>>> greatest guard against vendor lock-in and stale software: Independe= +nt +>>>>>> implementations. =E2=80=94 I asked, because obviously, I myself do= + not speak all +>>>>>> these different languages; and I want to implement them all. *All.* +>>>>>> +>>>>>> Some replies have been interesting in their own right; but thus far, +>>>>>> nobody has squarely addressed the substance of my question. +>>>>>> +>>>>>> Most worrisome is that much of the discussion has veered into +>>>>>> criticism of multi-language support. I opened with a question about= + other +>>>>>> languages, and I am getting replies which raise a hue and cry of =E2= +=80=9CEnglish +>>>>>> only!=E2=80=9D +>>>>>> +>>>>>> Though I am fluent and literate in English, I am uninterested in eve= +r +>>>>>> implementing any standard of this nature which is artificially restr= +icted +>>>>>> to English. I am fortunate; for as of this moment, we have a standa= +rd +>>>>>> called =E2=80=9CBIP 39=E2=80=9D which has seven non-English wordlist= +s, and four more +>>>>>> pending in open pull requests (#432, #442, #493, #621). +>>>>>> +>>>>>> I request discussion of language identification strings appropriate +>>>>>> for use with that standard. +>>>>>> +>>>>>> (P.S., I hope that my system did not mangle anything in the +>>>>>> foregoing. I have seen weird copypaste behaviour mess up decomposed +>>>>>> characters. I thought of this after I searched for and collected so= +me +>>>>>> visually fascinating phrases; so I tried to normalize these to NFC..= +. It +>>>>>> should go without saying, easyseed output the Japanese perfectly!) +>>>>>> +>>>>>> +>>>>>> -- +>>>>>> nullius@nym.zone | PGP ECC: 0xC2E91CD74A4C57A105F6C21B5A00 +>>>>>> 591B2F307E0C +>>>>>> Bitcoin: bc1qcash96s5jqppzsp8hy8swkggf7f6agex98an7h | (Segwit nested= +: +>>>>>> 3NULL3ZCUXr7RDLxXeLPDMZDZYxuaYkCnG) (PGP RSA: 0x36EBB4AB699A10EE) +>>>>>> =E2=80=9C=E2=80=98If you=E2=80=99re not doing anything wrong, you ha= +ve nothing to hide.=E2=80=99 +>>>>>> No! Because I do nothing wrong, I have nothing to show.=E2=80=9D = +=E2=80=94 nullius +>>>>>> +>>>>>> _______________________________________________ +>>>>>> bitcoin-dev mailing list +>>>>>> bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org +>>>>>> https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev +>>>>>> +>>>>>> +>>>>> +>>>>> _______________________________________________ +>>>>> bitcoin-dev mailing list +>>>>> bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org +>>>>> https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev +>>>>> +>>>>> +>>>> +>>>> +>>>> -- +>>>> Mat=C3=ADas Alejo Garcia +>>>> @ematiu +>>>> Roads? Where we're going, we don't need roads! +>>>> +>>> +>>> +>> +>> +>> -- +>> Mat=C3=ADas Alejo Garcia +>> @ematiu +>> Roads? Where we're going, we don't need roads! +>> +>> _______________________________________________ +>> bitcoin-dev mailing list +>> bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org +>> https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev +>> +>> +> + +--94eb2c0c387080c70e05624584f5 +Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" +Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable + +<div dir=3D"ltr">>I'<span style=3D"font-size:12.8px">m shocked that = +so many people are resisting the idea that=C2=A0just=C2=A0</span><i style= +=3D"font-size:12.8px">maybe</i><span style=3D"font-size:12.8px">=C2=A0there= + could be people in other parts of the world who do not want to use or cann= +ot use the strict set of latin characters and words from the English langua= +ge.</span><div><span style=3D"font-size:12.8px"><br></span></div><div><span= + style=3D"font-size:12.8px"><br></span></div><div><span style=3D"font-size:= +12.8px">You're mistaking concern for users potentially losing money wit= +h disdain for them. I can read a few languages, yet I would not advise user= +s to use a wordlist that might not have support across multiple wallet impl= +ementations, resulting in lock-in or worse.</span></div><div><br></div><div= +>If I'm wrong, great, more people can use software strictly in their na= +tive language in a safe manner!</div></div><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><= +div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Mon, Jan 8, 2018 at 10:26 AM, AJ West <span di= +r=3D"ltr"><<a href=3D"mailto:ajwest@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">ajwest@= +gmail.com</a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style= +=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir= +=3D"ltr">Greg yes, there were already examples in this very thread of peopl= +e explaining how they use languages other than English. I'm shocked tha= +t so many people are resisting the idea that=C2=A0just=C2=A0<i>maybe</i>=C2= +=A0there could be people in other parts of the world who do not want to use= + or cannot use the strict set of latin characters and words from the Englis= +h language.<div><br></div><div>I agree with=C2=A0<span style=3D"font-size:1= +2.8px;white-space:nowrap">Sjors and m</span>aybe I'm simplifying too mu= +ch, but can't we just map an existing ISO/UTF language character standa= +rd to the seeds? Why is there a word list at all? Choose a flexible encodin= +g standard, create a clever map to the bytes, make sure to include a checks= +um.</div><div><br></div><div>As an aside, I know there are some conventions= + which add space for error correction but I personally don't love the i= +dea of somebody inputting what they think is the proper seed, only to have = +it auto-corrected and thus reinforcing their erroneously saved/written seed= + backup.</div><div><br></div><div><span style=3D"font-size:12.8px;white-spa= +ce:nowrap">Pavol, why do you say "</span><span style=3D"font-size:12.8= +px">I=C2=A0</span><span style=3D"font-size:12.8px">learned that it was some= +thing I should've been more persistently against?" I still can'= +;t see any good arguments as to why we should limit this to English other t= +han "It's easier to support a single language" which comes at= + the cost of "It's hard for me to backup my seed" for those w= +ho don't speak English.</span></div></div><div class=3D"HOEnZb"><div cl= +ass=3D"h5"><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Mon= +, Jan 8, 2018 at 10:23 AM, Matias Alejo Garcia via bitcoin-dev <span dir=3D= +"ltr"><<a href=3D"mailto:bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org" target= +=3D"_blank">bitcoin-dev@lists.<wbr>linuxfoundation.org</a>></span> wrote= +:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-le= +ft:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><span>>=C2=A0<span = +style=3D"font-size:12.8px">Let me re-phrase: Is it a known thing for users = +to actually use it?</span><div class=3D"m_-4436153488741049861m_-6634967038= +594159325gmail-yj6qo m_-4436153488741049861m_-6634967038594159325gmail-ajU"= + style=3D"font-size:12.8px"></div><br></span>yes. Based on language stats f= +rom the app stores, roughly 30% to=C2=A040% of Copay users have their backu= +p on a language<div>other than English, and we constantly get requests to s= +upport new languages in BIP39.=C2=A0</div></div><div class=3D"m_-4436153488= +741049861HOEnZb"><div class=3D"m_-4436153488741049861h5"><div class=3D"gmai= +l_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Mon, Jan 8, 2018 at 11:54 AM, Gr= +eg Sanders <span dir=3D"ltr"><<a href=3D"mailto:gsanders87@gmail.com" ta= +rget=3D"_blank">gsanders87@gmail.com</a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquote c= +lass=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;= +padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr">Let me re-phrase: Is it a known thing fo= +r users to actually use it?</div><div class=3D"m_-4436153488741049861m_-663= +4967038594159325HOEnZb"><div class=3D"m_-4436153488741049861m_-663496703859= +4159325h5"><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Mon= +, Jan 8, 2018 at 9:52 AM, Matias Alejo Garcia <span dir=3D"ltr"><<a href= +=3D"mailto:ematiu@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">ematiu@gmail.com</a>></sp= +an> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;= +border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><br><div clas= +s=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><span>On Mon, Jan 8, 2018 = +at 11:34 AM, Greg Sanders via bitcoin-dev <span dir=3D"ltr"><<a href=3D"= +mailto:bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org" target=3D"_blank">bitcoin-dev= +@lists.linuxfounda<wbr>tion.org</a>></span> wrote:<br></span><span><bloc= +kquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #cc= +c solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div>Has anyone actually used th= +e multilingual support in bip39?<br></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div= +><div><br></div></span><div>Copay (and all its clones) use it.=C2=A0</div><= +div><div class=3D"m_-4436153488741049861m_-6634967038594159325m_-3507240147= +884098865h5"><div><br></div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div>=C2=A0</div>= +<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1p= +x #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div></div><div><br></div><= +div>If a feature of the standard has not been(widely?) used in years, and i= +sn't supported in any major wallet(?), it seems indicative it was a mis= +take to add it in the first place, since it's a footgun in the making f= +or some poor sap who can't even read English letters when almost all do= +cumentation is written in English.</div></div><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><b= +r><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div><div class=3D"m_-4436153488741049861m_-66= +34967038594159325m_-3507240147884098865m_7015119369442535395h5">On Mon, Jan= + 8, 2018 at 6:13 AM, nullius via bitcoin-dev <span dir=3D"ltr"><<a href= +=3D"mailto:bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org" target=3D"_blank">bitcoin= +-dev@lists.linuxfounda<wbr>tion.org</a>></span> wrote:<br></div></div><b= +lockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px = +#ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div><div class=3D"m_-4436153488741049861m_-66= +34967038594159325m_-3507240147884098865m_7015119369442535395h5"><span>On 20= +18-01-08 at 07:35:52 +0000, =E6=9C=A8=E3=83=8E=E4=B8=8B=E3=81=98=E3=82=87= +=E3=81=AA <<a href=3D"mailto:kinoshitajona@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">= +kinoshitajona@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br> +</span><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-= +left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><span> +This is very sad.<br> +<br> +The number one problem in Japan with BIP39 seeds is with English words.<br> +<br> +I have seen a 60 year old Japanese man writing down his phrase (because he = +kept on failing recovery), and watched him write down "aneter" fo= +r "amateur"...<br> +<br></span> +[...]<span><br> +<br> +If you understand English and can spell, you read a word, your brain proces= +ses the word, and you can spell it on your own when writing down.=C2=A0 Not= + many Japanese people can do that, so they need to copy letter for letter, = +taking a long time, and still messing up on occasion.<br> +<br></span> +[...]<span><br> +<br> +Defining "everyone should only use English, because ASCII is easier to= + plan for" is not a good way to move forward as a currency.<br> +</span></blockquote> +<br> +Well said.=C2=A0 Thank you for telling of these experiences.=C2=A0 Now plea= +se, let=E2=80=99s put the shoe on the other foot.<br> +<br> +I ask everybody who wants an English-only mnemonic standard to entrust *the= +ir own money* to their abilities to very, very carefully write this down=E2= +=80=94then later, type it back in:<br> +<br> +=E3=81=99=E3=81=95=E3=82=93=E3=80=80=E3=81=9F=E3=82=93=E3=82=8D=E3=80=80=E3= +=82=8A=E3=82=86=E3=81=86=E3=80=80=E3=81=97=E3=82=82=E3=82=93=E3=80=80=E3=81= +=A6=E3=81=84=E3=81=8A=E3=82=93=E3=80=80=E3=81=97=E3=81=A8=E3=81=86<br> +=E3=81=A8=E3=81=93=E3=82=84=E3=80=80=E3=81=AF=E3=82=84=E3=81=84=E3=80=80=E3= +=81=8A=E3=81=86=E3=81=95=E3=81=BE=E3=80=80=E3=81=BB=E3=81=8F=E3=82=8D=E3=80= +=80=E3=81=91=E3=81=A1=E3=82=83=E3=81=A3=E3=81=B5=E3=80=80=E3=81=9F=E3=82=82= +=E3=81=A4<br> +<br> +(Approximate translation:=C2=A0 =E2=80=9CWhatever would you do if Bitcoin h= +ad been invented by somebody named Satoshi Nakamoto?=E2=80=9D)<br> +<br> +No, wait:=C2=A0 That is only a 12-word mnemonic.=C2=A0 We are probably talk= +ing about a Trezor; so now, hey you there, stake the backup of your life=E2= +=80=99s savings on your ability to handwrite *this*:<br> +<br> +=E3=81=AB=E3=81=82=E3=81=86=E3=80=80=E3=81=97=E3=81=B2=E3=82=87=E3=81=86=E3= +=80=80=E3=81=AB=E3=82=93=E3=81=99=E3=81=86=E3=80=80=E3=81=B2=E3=81=88=E3=82= +=8B=E3=80=80=E3=81=8B=E3=81=84=E3=81=93=E3=81=86=E3=80=80=E3=81=84=E3=81=AE= +=E3=82=8B=E3=80=80=E3=81=AD=E3=82=93=E3=81=97=E3=80=80=E3=81=AF=E3=81=82=E3= +=81=95=E3=82=93=E3=80=80=E3=81=B2=E3=81=93=E3=81=8F<br> +=E3=81=A8=E3=81=86=E3=81=8F=E3=80=80=E3=81=8D=E3=82=82=E3=81=9F=E3=82=81=E3= +=81=97=E3=80=80=E3=81=9D=E3=81=AA=E3=81=9F=E3=80=80=E3=81=93=E3=81=AA=E3=81= +=93=E3=81=AA=E3=80=80=E3=81=AB=E3=81=95=E3=82=93=E3=81=8B=E3=81=9F=E3=82=93= +=E3=81=9D=E3=80=80=E3=82=8D=E3=82=93=E3=81=8D=E3=80=80=E3=82=81=E3=81=84=E3= +=81=82=E3=82=93=E3=80=80=E3=81=BF=E3=82=8F=E3=81=8F<br> +=E3=81=B8=E3=81=93=E3=82=80=E3=80=80=E3=81=99=E3=81=B2=E3=82=87=E3=81=86=E3= +=80=80=E3=81=8A=E3=82=84=E3=82=86=E3=81=B2=E3=80=80=E3=81=B5=E3=81=9B=E3=81= +=8F=E3=80=80=E3=81=91=E3=81=95=E3=81=8D=E3=80=80=E3=82=81=E3=81=84=E3=81=8D= +=E3=82=87=E3=81=8F=E3=80=80=E3=81=93=E3=82=93=E3=81=BE=E3=81=91<br> +<br> +Ready to bet your money on *that* as a backup phrase in your own hands?=C2= +=A0 No?=C2=A0 Then please, stop demanding that others risk *their* money on= + the inverse case.<br> +<br> +----<br> +<br> +If you cheat here by having studied Japanese, then remember that many Japan= +ese people know English and other European languages, too.=C2=A0 Then think= + of how much money would be lost by your non-Japanese-literate family and f= +riends=E2=80=94if BIP 39 had only Japanese wordlists, and your folks needed= + to wrestle with the above phrases as their =E2=80=9Cmnemonics=E2=80=9D.<br= +> +<br> +In such cases, the phrases cannot be called =E2=80=9Cmnemonics=E2=80=9D at = +all.=C2=A0 A =E2=80=9Cmnemonic=E2=80=9D implies aid to memory.=C2=A0 Gibber= +ish in a wholly alien writing system is much worse even than transcribing p= +seudorandom hex strings.=C2=A0 The Japanese man in the quoted story, who wr= +ote =E2=80=9Caneter=E2=80=9D for =E2=80=9Camateur=E2=80=9D, was not dealing= + with a *mnemonic*:=C2=A0 He was using the world=E2=80=99s most inefficient= + means of making cryptic bitstrings *less* userfriendly.<br> +<br> +----<br> +<br> +I began this thread with a quite simple request:=C2=A0 Is =E2=80=9C=E6=97= +=A5=E6=9C=AC=E8=AA=9E=E2=80=9D an appropriate string for identifying the Ja= +panese language to Japanese users?=C2=A0 And what of the other strings I po= +sted for other languages?<br> +<br> +I asked this as an implementer working on my own instance of the greatest g= +uard against vendor lock-in and stale software:=C2=A0 Independent implement= +ations.=C2=A0 =E2=80=94=C2=A0 I asked, because obviously, I myself do not s= +peak all these different languages; and I want to implement them all.=C2=A0= + *All.*<br> +<br> +Some replies have been interesting in their own right; but thus far, nobody= + has squarely addressed the substance of my question.<br> +<br> +Most worrisome is that much of the discussion has veered into criticism of = +multi-language support.=C2=A0 I opened with a question about other language= +s, and I am getting replies which raise a hue and cry of =E2=80=9CEnglish o= +nly!=E2=80=9D<br> +<br> +Though I am fluent and literate in English, I am uninterested in ever imple= +menting any standard of this nature which is artificially restricted to Eng= +lish.=C2=A0 I am fortunate; for as of this moment, we have a standard calle= +d =E2=80=9CBIP 39=E2=80=9D which has seven non-English wordlists, and four = +more pending in open pull requests (#432, #442, #493, #621).<br> +<br> +I request discussion of language identification strings appropriate for use= + with that standard.<br> +<br> +(P.S., I hope that my system did not mangle anything in the foregoing.=C2= +=A0 I have seen weird copypaste behaviour mess up decomposed characters.=C2= +=A0 I thought of this after I searched for and collected some visually fasc= +inating phrases; so I tried to normalize these to NFC...=C2=A0 It should go= + without saying, easyseed output the Japanese perfectly!)<div class=3D"m_-4= +436153488741049861m_-6634967038594159325m_-3507240147884098865m_70151193694= +42535395m_-6034384190307218273HOEnZb"><div class=3D"m_-4436153488741049861m= +_-6634967038594159325m_-3507240147884098865m_7015119369442535395m_-60343841= +90307218273h5"><br> +<br> +-- <br> +nullius@nym.zone | PGP ECC: 0xC2E91CD74A4C57A105F6C21B5A00<wbr>591B2F307E0C= +<br> +Bitcoin: bc1qcash96s5jqppzsp8hy8swkggf7<wbr>f6agex98an7h | (Segwit nested:<= +br> +3NULL3ZCUXr7RDLxXeLPDMZDZYxuaY<wbr>kCnG)=C2=A0 (PGP RSA: 0x36EBB4AB699A10EE= +)<br> +=E2=80=9C=E2=80=98If you=E2=80=99re not doing anything wrong, you have noth= +ing to hide.=E2=80=99<br> +No!=C2=A0 Because I do nothing wrong, I have nothing to show.=E2=80=9D =E2= +=80=94 nullius<br> +</div></div><br></div></div><span>______________________________<wbr>______= +___________<br> +bitcoin-dev mailing list<br> +<a href=3D"mailto:bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org" target=3D"_blank">= +bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundat<wbr>ion.org</a><br> +<a href=3D"https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev" = +rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://lists.linuxfoundation.<wbr>org= +/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-d<wbr>ev</a><br> +<br></span></blockquote></div><br></div> +<br>______________________________<wbr>_________________<br> +bitcoin-dev mailing list<br> +<a href=3D"mailto:bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org" target=3D"_blank">= +bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundat<wbr>ion.org</a><br> +<a href=3D"https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev" = +rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://lists.linuxfoundation.<wbr>org= +/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-d<wbr>ev</a><br> +<br></blockquote></div></div></div><span class=3D"m_-4436153488741049861m_-= +6634967038594159325m_-3507240147884098865HOEnZb"><font color=3D"#888888"><b= +r><br clear=3D"all"><div><br></div>-- <br><div class=3D"m_-4436153488741049= +861m_-6634967038594159325m_-3507240147884098865m_7015119369442535395gmail_s= +ignature" data-smartmail=3D"gmail_signature"><div dir=3D"ltr">Mat=C3=ADas A= +lejo Garcia<br>@ematiu<br>Roads? Where we're going, we don't need r= +oads!</div></div> +</font></span></div></div> +</blockquote></div><br></div> +</div></div></blockquote></div><br><br clear=3D"all"><div><br></div>-- <br>= +<div class=3D"m_-4436153488741049861m_-6634967038594159325gmail_signature" = +data-smartmail=3D"gmail_signature"><div dir=3D"ltr">Mat=C3=ADas Alejo Garci= +a<br>@ematiu<br>Roads? Where we're going, we don't need roads!</div= +></div> +</div> +</div></div><br>______________________________<wbr>_________________<br> +bitcoin-dev mailing list<br> +<a href=3D"mailto:bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org" target=3D"_blank">= +bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundat<wbr>ion.org</a><br> +<a href=3D"https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev" = +rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://lists.linuxfoundation.<wbr>org= +/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-d<wbr>ev</a><br> +<br></blockquote></div><br></div> +</div></div></blockquote></div><br></div> + +--94eb2c0c387080c70e05624584f5-- + |