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Date: Thu, 12 Feb 2015 13:47:12 -0600
Message-ID: <CAJfRnm5d2WcZw3eRjN-cLajwTM0iF_o7OCPc+dkv+s-p3e9nLg@mail.gmail.com>
From: Allen Piscitello <allen.piscitello@gmail.com>
To: Justus Ranvier <justusranvier@riseup.net>
Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=047d7b3a8394e602dc050ee9623e
Cc: Bitcoin Development <bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net>
Subject: Re: [Bitcoin-development] replace-by-fee v0.10.0rc4
Precedence: list

--047d7b3a8394e602dc050ee9623e
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8

Nothing will stop that.  Bitcoin needs to deal with those issues, not stick
our heads in the sand and pretend they don't exist out of benevolence.
This isn't a pet solution, but the rules of the protocol and what is
realistically possible given the nature of distributed consensus.  Relying
on altruism is a recipe for failure.

On Thu, Feb 12, 2015 at 1:34 PM, Justus Ranvier <justusranvier@riseup.net>
wrote:

> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Hash: SHA256
>
> On 02/12/2015 07:15 PM, Alan Reiner wrote:
> > I'll add fuel to the fire here, and express that I believe that
> > replace-by-fee is good in the long-term.  Peter is not breaking
> > the zero-conf, it was already broken, and not admitting it creates
> > a false sense of security.  I don't want to see systems that are
> > built on the assumption that zero-conf tx are safe solely because
> > it has always appeared safe.  You can argue about rational miner
> > behaviors all day, but in a decentralized system you have no idea
> > what miners consider rational, or speculate about their incentives.
> >
> As noted elsewhere in the thread, there are two problems with this
> analysis:
>
> 1. It asserts that zero-confirmation transactions are in a binary
> state of safe/broken instead of recognizing that relying on them is a
> non-binary risk analysis on the part of a merchant.
>
> 2. Assumptions about what is profitable for miners are based on all
> miners having short time horizons for calculating profits.
>
> In addition, I'll add that there is an assumption that honest actors
> can not alter their behavior in response to changing conditions.
>
> Since scorched-earth solutions to problems are apparently acceptable
> now, what would stop more honest node operators from patching their
> nodes to blacklist any peer that relays replace-by-fee transactions,
> and maybe even publish an IP address list of those peers?
>
> Punishing Bitcoin users for not adopting somebody's pet solution to a
> problem neither responsible nor ethical.
>
> Child-pays-for-parent allows for stuck transactions to be cleared from
> the mempool, and allows recipients of zero-conf transactions to adjust
> their risk exposure as much or as little as they like.
>
> It's a solution that gives Bitcoin users more freedom, instead of
> trying to coerce them into pre-determined directions.
>
> - --
> Support online privacy by using email encryption whenever possible.
> Learn how here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bakOKJFtB-k
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>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Dive into the World of Parallel Programming. The Go Parallel Website,
> sponsored by Intel and developed in partnership with Slashdot Media, is
> your
> hub for all things parallel software development, from weekly thought
> leadership blogs to news, videos, case studies, tutorials and more. Take a
> look and join the conversation now. http://goparallel.sourceforge.net/
> _______________________________________________
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>
>

--047d7b3a8394e602dc050ee9623e
Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8
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<div dir=3D"ltr">Nothing will stop that.=C2=A0 Bitcoin needs to deal with t=
hose issues, not stick our heads in the sand and pretend they don&#39;t exi=
st out of benevolence.=C2=A0 This isn&#39;t a pet solution, but the rules o=
f the protocol and what is realistically possible given the nature of distr=
ibuted consensus.=C2=A0 Relying on altruism is a recipe for failure.</div><=
div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Thu, Feb 12, 20=
15 at 1:34 PM, Justus Ranvier <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:justu=
sranvier@riseup.net" target=3D"_blank">justusranvier@riseup.net</a>&gt;</sp=
an> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;=
border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><span class=3D"">-----BEGIN PG=
P SIGNED MESSAGE-----<br>
Hash: SHA256<br>
<br>
</span><span class=3D"">On 02/12/2015 07:15 PM, Alan Reiner wrote:<br>
&gt; I&#39;ll add fuel to the fire here, and express that I believe that<br=
>
&gt; replace-by-fee is good in the long-term.=C2=A0 Peter is not breaking<b=
r>
&gt; the zero-conf, it was already broken, and not admitting it creates<br>
&gt; a false sense of security.=C2=A0 I don&#39;t want to see systems that =
are<br>
&gt; built on the assumption that zero-conf tx are safe solely because<br>
&gt; it has always appeared safe.=C2=A0 You can argue about rational miner<=
br>
&gt; behaviors all day, but in a decentralized system you have no idea<br>
&gt; what miners consider rational, or speculate about their incentives.<br=
>
&gt;<br>
</span>As noted elsewhere in the thread, there are two problems with this<b=
r>
analysis:<br>
<br>
1. It asserts that zero-confirmation transactions are in a binary<br>
state of safe/broken instead of recognizing that relying on them is a<br>
non-binary risk analysis on the part of a merchant.<br>
<br>
2. Assumptions about what is profitable for miners are based on all<br>
miners having short time horizons for calculating profits.<br>
<br>
In addition, I&#39;ll add that there is an assumption that honest actors<br=
>
can not alter their behavior in response to changing conditions.<br>
<br>
Since scorched-earth solutions to problems are apparently acceptable<br>
now, what would stop more honest node operators from patching their<br>
nodes to blacklist any peer that relays replace-by-fee transactions,<br>
and maybe even publish an IP address list of those peers?<br>
<br>
Punishing Bitcoin users for not adopting somebody&#39;s pet solution to a<b=
r>
problem neither responsible nor ethical.<br>
<br>
Child-pays-for-parent allows for stuck transactions to be cleared from<br>
the mempool, and allows recipients of zero-conf transactions to adjust<br>
their risk exposure as much or as little as they like.<br>
<br>
It&#39;s a solution that gives Bitcoin users more freedom, instead of<br>
trying to coerce them into pre-determined directions.<br>
<span class=3D""><br>
- --<br>
Support online privacy by using email encryption whenever possible.<br>
Learn how here: <a href=3D"http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3DbakOKJFtB-k" ta=
rget=3D"_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3DbakOKJFtB-k</a><br>
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<br>-----------------------------------------------------------------------=
-------<br>
Dive into the World of Parallel Programming. The Go Parallel Website,<br>
sponsored by Intel and developed in partnership with Slashdot Media, is you=
r<br>
hub for all things parallel software development, from weekly thought<br>
leadership blogs to news, videos, case studies, tutorials and more. Take a<=
br>
look and join the conversation now. <a href=3D"http://goparallel.sourceforg=
e.net/" target=3D"_blank">http://goparallel.sourceforge.net/</a><br>_______=
________________________________________<br>
Bitcoin-development mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net">Bitcoin-develo=
pment@lists.sourceforge.net</a><br>
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" target=3D"_blank">https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-de=
velopment</a><br>
<br></blockquote></div><br></div>

--047d7b3a8394e602dc050ee9623e--