Return-Path: Received: from smtp2.osuosl.org (smtp2.osuosl.org [IPv6:2605:bc80:3010::133]) by lists.linuxfoundation.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B8FEAC002D for ; Tue, 10 Jan 2023 10:06:26 +0000 (UTC) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by smtp2.osuosl.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9071B40297 for ; Tue, 10 Jan 2023 10:06:26 +0000 (UTC) DKIM-Filter: OpenDKIM Filter v2.11.0 smtp2.osuosl.org 9071B40297 Authentication-Results: smtp2.osuosl.org; dkim=pass (2048-bit key, unprotected) header.d=messagingengine.com header.i=@messagingengine.com header.a=rsa-sha256 header.s=fm3 header.b=Dl51EvSe X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at osuosl.org X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.603 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.603 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from smtp2.osuosl.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (smtp2.osuosl.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id LArf6BW_OSjo for ; Tue, 10 Jan 2023 10:06:25 +0000 (UTC) X-Greylist: domain auto-whitelisted by SQLgrey-1.8.0 DKIM-Filter: OpenDKIM Filter v2.11.0 smtp2.osuosl.org 8E73F401B2 Received: from wout2-smtp.messagingengine.com (wout2-smtp.messagingengine.com [64.147.123.25]) by smtp2.osuosl.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 8E73F401B2 for ; Tue, 10 Jan 2023 10:06:25 +0000 (UTC) Received: from compute3.internal (compute3.nyi.internal [10.202.2.43]) by mailout.west.internal (Postfix) with ESMTP id A94293200063; Tue, 10 Jan 2023 05:06:24 -0500 (EST) Received: from mailfrontend1 ([10.202.2.162]) by compute3.internal (MEProxy); Tue, 10 Jan 2023 05:06:24 -0500 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d= messagingengine.com; h=cc:cc:content-type:date:date:feedback-id :feedback-id:from:from:in-reply-to:in-reply-to:message-id :mime-version:references:reply-to:sender:subject:subject:to:to :x-me-proxy:x-me-proxy:x-me-sender:x-me-sender:x-sasl-enc; s= fm3; t=1673345184; x=1673431584; bh=DNjDZOAw2+29MloyQZ7Ub9KpfsI4 XZY/3Y3Q4A4USH0=; b=Dl51EvSen8N38eW/hi9oe0xNKnssaxCP8p65RpZUa7bU La9MSA+9IiQAQLtK9UdnnIfSjqBEjWqYSBfG+8/CZ/+5PPK63kSJR1CwxM0V89b7 o2P3wveO3PA/o2A8DHwXsOV9cN496Wxp6VtiAjXwymL6LNTkEfD8kw916QiGjh4e 7FA36IevV3PCWuIWPRMuqJzLD+02e3/c0XWA8YNKfKm1RsvrCARaOKEM6aR6n6lp 0WeowMHTqJF2wWJjXy8a47FJ9WrsAs5C74IiB3h90jYNAPmyb3GpXi3qP16Lm/I1 YtdaZngmhefSpLJOzVpXGF+p0iEAd9C/NQTOS7UnAQ== X-ME-Sender: X-ME-Received: X-ME-Proxy-Cause: gggruggvucftvghtrhhoucdtuddrgedvhedrkeekgdduudcutefuodetggdotefrodftvf curfhrohhfihhlvgemucfhrghsthforghilhdpqfgfvfdpuffrtefokffrpgfnqfghnecu uegrihhlohhuthemuceftddtnecunecujfgurhepfffhvfevuffkfhggtggujgesghdtre ertddtvdenucfhrhhomheprfgvthgvrhcuvfhougguuceophgvthgvsehpvghtvghrthho uggurdhorhhgqeenucggtffrrghtthgvrhhnpeelvdellefftddukeduffejgfefjeeuhe eileeftdfgteduteeggeevueethfejtdenucffohhmrghinhepphgvthgvrhhtohguugdr ohhrghenucevlhhushhtvghrufhiiigvpedtnecurfgrrhgrmhepmhgrihhlfhhrohhmpe hpvghtvgesphgvthgvrhhtohguugdrohhrgh X-ME-Proxy: Feedback-ID: i525146e8:Fastmail Received: by mail.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTPA; Tue, 10 Jan 2023 05:06:23 -0500 (EST) Received: by localhost (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 329CB5F823; Tue, 10 Jan 2023 05:06:22 -0500 (EST) Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2023 05:06:22 -0500 From: Peter Todd To: "David A. Harding" Message-ID: References: <6089e1f0140684435bf5e87b0c13d561@dtrt.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha512; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="Kr9x5fj1MrXRBSk+" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <6089e1f0140684435bf5e87b0c13d561@dtrt.org> Cc: Bitcoin Protocol Discussion Subject: Re: [bitcoin-dev] Why Full-RBF Makes DoS Attacks on Multiparty Protocols Significantly More Expensive X-BeenThere: bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Bitcoin Protocol Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2023 10:06:26 -0000 --Kr9x5fj1MrXRBSk+ Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Tue, Jan 10, 2023 at 12:02:35AM -1000, David A. Harding wrote: > On 2023-01-09 22:47, Peter Todd wrote: > > How do you propose that the participants learn about the double-spend? > > Without > > knowing that it happened, they can't respond as you suggested. >=20 > I can think of various ways---many of them probably the same ideas that > would occur to you. Rather than playing games, how about you actually list those ways. > More concise than listing them is to just assume > they exist and realize that any protocol software which wants to defeat > the $17.00 pinning attack needs to implement some sort of conflict > monitoring system---but by using that monitoring system to defeat the > $17.00 pinning attack, the software also defeats the $0.05 individual > conflicting input attack without any need for full-RBF. Remember, we'd like decentralized coinjoin implementations like Joinmarket = to work. How does a decentralized coinjoin implement "conflict monitoring"? --=20 https://petertodd.org 'peter'[:-1]@petertodd.org --Kr9x5fj1MrXRBSk+ Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQIzBAEBCgAdFiEE0RcYcKRzsEwFZ3N5Lly11TVRLzcFAmO9OJsACgkQLly11TVR Lzchiw//ZXVWfXQVKsuEuDcGPEtTsZ0qg2+CWAdQrrTJk0C8eIamIOJsSu0c9rvW BJnep+aDpb2fYdFePqjRObNtvTgNYB53eyT82MIFHaIIVSMdAopVNdjwcV/U7EWs ylk2MFG9sKm37eRYgOP0CXSak6JtDOw9wc5zwApqM0oC6OhOLuv8KD6p7Pwpen0H A+52nFFIa+PLAoMs3xGO0EUP2AsQpUDhQy8GzmRSzmUTeZIA47OwogtnY62RETEB vsvndiWofrLTRpvRtCv4VSyfVt90iS1X2epaE1ZYUl7PaynAYTWkVzxBga7TGKbQ 7FPjZ8l1bwZymBa4GyQfFavw3+dibcbQDJhLc66M/+hxvtBmmxWxhZJKL06SlTXn k+nCZEe0EGkOc+pAWIsk85oxyT7hc3KCG+wR8Jc9jeYKU3ZVZscgkurPNO5iGJ8Q ck5vtFUSzhaaXvv4GxQQumdP0lCIok6+uCc0qONOJ144R2hbWfXJ601UZSK+kIKi Ox27okWfhWRYaEggmfWAZnTgoYiAmgSZ3iH0SXe02QMSUMitCdRCC4hwkwZlwoe2 zEl6EL7yQ9GfWclD6LdLrfEXETPh7Rugakr3QirxSf6eKPQv9Zq6/mgQ8ALE3Lq7 NrZBl1kvmPGcgcxG+McCBGUZY0WB1pSAo2P5QuyH1277NUF303A= =JBuF -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Kr9x5fj1MrXRBSk+--