Delivery-date: Mon, 22 Jul 2024 13:57:41 -0700 Received: from mail-oo1-f56.google.com ([209.85.161.56]) by mail.fairlystable.org with esmtps (TLS1.3) tls TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (Exim 4.94.2) (envelope-from ) id 1sW06H-0007gU-2i for bitcoindev@gnusha.org; Mon, 22 Jul 2024 13:57:41 -0700 Received: by mail-oo1-f56.google.com with SMTP id 006d021491bc7-5c6612eb700sf2393193eaf.1 for ; Mon, 22 Jul 2024 13:57:40 -0700 (PDT) ARC-Seal: i=2; a=rsa-sha256; t=1721681855; cv=pass; d=google.com; s=arc-20160816; b=C76Att6Az89psBohRBJfwojlcK3gxEv/a7g2zoi3AU9ibRxPyFZOq4JseV8CIGZf8b 0WwJaZvXImvKonYFmaO/lZt7poE13IAV9gf2iKFyIEYh4T8JWKGhR4EymsE8rVR+Rvee 03PsmStc8axCE0fz06vtOrAhdEprurXnXZEnGNqslU9TT5hR1CPHHl5lsfLyBCfd5niT 58ZP/aj6KGMjynGqirVz06vBQkpZFHUxUIifYyKKiFeWIqOMeSypXTrnKPZwCPxBXJ7n q9687i/HsmtsGHfVUNo/QtLEbkEfDl91RbWStTg6KOcQg7x5iuRhPk2vQZrTezvH7qCu eqlg== ARC-Message-Signature: i=2; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=google.com; s=arc-20160816; h=list-unsubscribe:list-subscribe:list-archive:list-help:list-post :list-id:mailing-list:precedence:in-reply-to:content-disposition :mime-version:references:message-id:subject:cc:to:from:date :feedback-id:sender:dkim-signature; bh=umaRBZ8kSjtqJ+tfgPS3F/Fe8R7lG75mSaSbZ4LZPi4=; fh=cQpFoOjb+cCkJUXQxrgNY/HziZKdy+esYUCHiprZJiY=; b=teOnGxcLU8Jg7g/TGLooweVjBDoqZWcQo7o9ysXGlnBz8e2s+bq1C2O3hA5yKp/4He W8cFbF+N/a1pRr05T5uOwlkIHjK/oT0j2XOAgUjfE76JVYgAXLgx9Wr/TeC5ady0WOCx KDW44Qw4/H7ykNrCjkCgrkU5b63KEkUFCmTgt/btOCcWc3VDQk9ONzWJN1Iqcwrco8zI pT7VDNtgmVIfZNVtvtGDoArm8ztG6oceFWKlfx1C9ReGUlWhif1DuORSB+72T9gsPT+t 1hrEEjP63ziIeXngiX26PvMp6FC1/nBhPE6CZbOLV3T+2SI68Fiy0vo++aGIj5y8fJSA 4V0Q==; darn=gnusha.org ARC-Authentication-Results: i=2; gmr-mx.google.com; dkim=pass header.i=@messagingengine.com header.s=fm3 header.b=Umaffq2A; spf=pass (google.com: domain of pete@petertodd.org designates 103.168.172.149 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=pete@petertodd.org DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=20230601; t=1721681855; x=1722286655; darn=gnusha.org; h=list-unsubscribe:list-subscribe:list-archive:list-help:list-post :list-id:mailing-list:precedence:x-original-authentication-results :x-original-sender:in-reply-to:content-disposition:mime-version :references:message-id:subject:cc:to:from:date:feedback-id:sender :from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=umaRBZ8kSjtqJ+tfgPS3F/Fe8R7lG75mSaSbZ4LZPi4=; b=J28O7jMUk3oESj0OtTZ/z3ay197O4nNZEDG2BQJpFAWAplwet601iK7ZfXR7S0uoXn nKWqG6kTqmS8CrVX3ca2VdBes38NzIOQF76mpZk53af6ViZqNvchLGOUN8fLz7OmNHNA f2IZkF1/9urmUljoOgkekf6cX9mktzCE4CwGkjufqEDtWtRRjpSUfWd+byF+mgPoOt/F FoFCDRUSd/SOPzR+aKB4vAQTrr3uw+ucVSyPpioPzlC12xU60y1GvCjNmPJ0nE/ojA4A YyVCiqAsWC1OzKgh2OtECXDr0zkhbLiPE51K1rqOOk1siyBOyDBFrCuAQErOUyMq5CaQ JAnQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20230601; t=1721681855; x=1722286655; h=list-unsubscribe:list-subscribe:list-archive:list-help:list-post :list-id:mailing-list:precedence:x-original-authentication-results :x-original-sender:in-reply-to:content-disposition:mime-version :references:message-id:subject:cc:to:from:date:feedback-id :x-beenthere:x-gm-message-state:sender:from:to:cc:subject:date :message-id:reply-to; bh=umaRBZ8kSjtqJ+tfgPS3F/Fe8R7lG75mSaSbZ4LZPi4=; b=urcjFKgfKVrFyYD4bP23C2oaB+G06OMCCwFRkHw04FoWJWacCRRnyow3U5odK8o0+r yn8q5l2dY2AflnGwzODYKdLi4tYn0F/XQrtzaySRoGVeQat3TPP5221JjHAQqTLqrg5I Volsrh+2B00y9e+2QhDPEgFKWm1CwnmvVwTr6CePjtwfTU9t7aQLqcNwNjWm6Ger/63l +uHjcwxo4SvVFqASFwWAZjD+pJMjdOe57o6pTqo/iaF5KGhzArahYIyngb7V1EoCaqTM FfCv8vJnogRmuj24VpAoopEDf8qVczwNuQE5Cu7CgeiRrXeqwuG4S4jDoHj8s6oI2Pe3 YYoQ== Sender: bitcoindev@googlegroups.com X-Forwarded-Encrypted: i=2; AJvYcCWXqD7MxDwRP2IXZ+YX3tLXRdxGrPaZtr64aK9KNRoPcAqPdcpwemTJSHjWiUOgmsunZs1CWsR9zNx8V58+/Wu1ABAVveo= X-Gm-Message-State: AOJu0YwTfl7DWoaFgVLoQBTHPZYKLUEe8OfHRnkRl0xDhg5SNIst20vK O73O/8citW1OLwi+8eiGD805IzKVeTDUQLGnNWSqMqepqLVwUY/H X-Google-Smtp-Source: AGHT+IHlg5S0gpymNgOVabbTzEcB7a7kunI0SciRwGxDq5nMMMkLAZDjXdkcamD64HBruywG+p033Q== X-Received: by 2002:a4a:d2ca:0:b0:5ce:5d7d:f46d with SMTP id 006d021491bc7-5d58fadc873mr65288eaf.1.1721681854889; Mon, 22 Jul 2024 13:57:34 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: bitcoindev@googlegroups.com Received: by 2002:a05:6820:100f:b0:5c4:39af:4dc1 with SMTP id 006d021491bc7-5d5200369d3ls5394753eaf.2.-pod-prod-03-us; Mon, 22 Jul 2024 13:57:33 -0700 (PDT) X-Received: by 2002:a05:6820:61e:b0:5cd:13d1:234e with SMTP id 006d021491bc7-5d58b7a30c2mr51864eaf.2.1721681853315; Mon, 22 Jul 2024 13:57:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 2002:a05:6808:a09:b0:3d9:2ea5:e56e with SMTP id 5614622812f47-3dadf32f947msb6e; Mon, 22 Jul 2024 13:07:09 -0700 (PDT) X-Received: by 2002:a17:903:32c5:b0:1fb:80a3:5826 with SMTP id d9443c01a7336-1fd74cff03bmr155193195ad.4.1721678827800; Mon, 22 Jul 2024 13:07:07 -0700 (PDT) ARC-Seal: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; t=1721678827; cv=none; d=google.com; s=arc-20160816; b=fILN2Iei1sIBsW6eEhImcjwS79luHGIpF5d15mzLTcVxWnaX2Joyqh7mYPnA2wIoZG EHWEr4xwz/hdN91AtTzVaynXXKUKHsYYfndtynQHrrYjKaJU5hKFaeYG4axbKa+StDpA xcku8tqymuGR7IL2i1LV2cQRuwctYJNLXHfk5eWLyPPkCfWTrDlz5As6pt4hvrRdI3S/ iBJ0j1hWB8wsXkaYNRwN6a9GKsDOxiSiHjh0rGb8bRXddIOWV+eZ162lBeInSNTQCdBP Q4sfB2SnWzkmWp2ABxIzWHDtKi+Um+1IG2ZWqvd9SP6x5ldsvJPcE6Muho2P4fI0P1rj 0DOw== ARC-Message-Signature: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=google.com; s=arc-20160816; h=in-reply-to:content-disposition:mime-version:references:message-id :subject:cc:to:from:date:feedback-id:dkim-signature; bh=n8gwvbEl4EGXyldXTfIDK7/p+LqLlJnmoD2yH0OfP6I=; fh=qAkUFgesXJOBZlEhHhc6qjOrC9x9vwcQK9K5cSmyNz0=; b=ttvDyzCS+Oh6Hg09a+6mBVZ1aMvPJ3y9pYy7W0A0oja3UN3KTTEprLBZ9N+EFxTPvh Skwz/+aQ6PGDupY8/XfQVhwURY4BTnkI2iczT6xclFBQyNg6ZFMyeYxfpZBnwYOnEeBR n2XTGHgn2Vz87Q+Gd4s/7SQSuxIlYd766pE7DH+KI8kymZ73BubzKWHdBWuD8VODGISL 1y+nisHlkNWnBxPb6dxPdUEJJzOKGAPdQL4suA9rqLIpD9YYr3k9GtGlt20yvMDt9WWD ZJDcMWjBErSYiNNZSnTb9VeKgDtfLjw46pLYmR6vh9JRZEN4UwunwMnJsahUp+3eWNe0 y+1g==; dara=google.com ARC-Authentication-Results: i=1; gmr-mx.google.com; dkim=pass header.i=@messagingengine.com header.s=fm3 header.b=Umaffq2A; spf=pass (google.com: domain of pete@petertodd.org designates 103.168.172.149 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=pete@petertodd.org Received: from fout6-smtp.messagingengine.com (fout6-smtp.messagingengine.com. [103.168.172.149]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id d9443c01a7336-1fd6f43064dsi2520455ad.13.2024.07.22.13.07.06 for (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 bits=256/256); Mon, 22 Jul 2024 13:07:07 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of pete@petertodd.org designates 103.168.172.149 as permitted sender) client-ip=103.168.172.149; Received: from compute3.internal (compute3.nyi.internal [10.202.2.43]) by mailfout.nyi.internal (Postfix) with ESMTP id A27DE1380280; Mon, 22 Jul 2024 16:07:05 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mailfrontend2 ([10.202.2.163]) by compute3.internal (MEProxy); Mon, 22 Jul 2024 16:07:05 -0400 X-ME-Sender: X-ME-Received: X-ME-Proxy-Cause: gggruggvucftvghtrhhoucdtuddrgeeftddrheejgddugeeiucetufdoteggodetrfdotf fvucfrrhhofhhilhgvmecuhfgrshhtofgrihhlpdfqfgfvpdfurfetoffkrfgpnffqhgen uceurghilhhouhhtmecufedttdenucenucfjughrpeffhffvvefukfhfgggtuggjsehgtd erredttddvnecuhfhrohhmpefrvghtvghrucfvohguugcuoehpvghtvgesphgvthgvrhht ohguugdrohhrgheqnecuggftrfgrthhtvghrnhepkeeggefhheefvdeijedvtdfguedtvd evheffvdfhieeigffffeeugedvudejudevnecuffhomhgrihhnpehgihhthhhusgdrtgho mhdpuggvlhhvihhnghgsihhttghoihhnrdhorhhgpdhpvghtvghrthhouggurdhorhhgne cuvehluhhsthgvrhfuihiivgeptdenucfrrghrrghmpehmrghilhhfrhhomhepphgvthgv sehpvghtvghrthhouggurdhorhhg X-ME-Proxy: Feedback-ID: i525146e8:Fastmail Received: by mail.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTPA; Mon, 22 Jul 2024 16:07:04 -0400 (EDT) Received: by localhost (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 2B4305F83F; Mon, 22 Jul 2024 20:06:57 +0000 (UTC) Date: Mon, 22 Jul 2024 20:06:57 +0000 From: Peter Todd To: "David A. Harding" Cc: bitcoindev@googlegroups.com Subject: Re: [bitcoindev] RBFR makes the CPFP carve-out obsolete with cluster mempool, without upgrading LN nodes; TRUC/V3 does not Message-ID: References: <0eeb34c87b4cd7c9165983dc3a613550@dtrt.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha512; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="yP7q3x4oa9g2R/MJ" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <0eeb34c87b4cd7c9165983dc3a613550@dtrt.org> X-Original-Sender: pete@petertodd.org X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; dkim=pass header.i=@messagingengine.com header.s=fm3 header.b=Umaffq2A; spf=pass (google.com: domain of pete@petertodd.org designates 103.168.172.149 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=pete@petertodd.org Precedence: list Mailing-list: list bitcoindev@googlegroups.com; contact bitcoindev+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 786775582512 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: , List-Unsubscribe: , X-Spam-Score: -0.8 (/) --yP7q3x4oa9g2R/MJ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Disposition: inline On Mon, Jul 22, 2024 at 06:43:14AM -1000, David A. Harding wrote: > On 2024-07-22 01:45, Peter Todd wrote: > > TRUC meanwhile isn't even a drop-in solution, and requires everyone to > > upgrade before cluster mempool is even possible. > > The proposed BIP for TRUC[1] is indeed entirely opt-in and would require > all users of CPFP-CO (e.g. LN anchors channels) to upgrade their > software and switch to a new commitment transactions format, which > currently requires closing and reopening all anchors channels. There's > work on improving upgrade mechanisms in LN, but it would still be a pain > and a major delay to cluster mempool to depend on every LN user > upgrading. > > However, there has also been significant discussion and analysis[2] of an > imbued-semantics form of TRUC that could be retroactively applied to > LN-style anchor outputs (which are the only users of CPFP-CO we know > about). In that case, nobody needs to upgrade before cluster mempool > becomes possible. > > In my previous email, I assumed you were familiar with the imbued > semantics proposal; I'm sorry for the miscommunication. I am aware of that proposal. It is not a proposal with "significant discussion and analysis", your link, [2], has three posts in total, with discussion ending in Febuary, with only the OP having any significant content. Both replies to the idea noted potential incompatibilites with existing implementations. I'm not aware of any running code nor any significant discussion amongst LN implementations and other stakeholders. The idea hasn't even been posted to this mailing list. That's why I never brought it up: the idea seems to have died out. Frankly, unless you can point to actual "significant discussion and analysis" of the idea, it's dishonest and toxic of you to portray it as such as you should know better. RBFR has had more "significant discussion and analysis" than this idea in this very thread. Personally, I think it might not be an unreasonable hack before something better like RBFR gets implemented. But it's only a hack. And if anything, it strongly suggests that actually permanently specifying TRUC/V3 is an unnecessary complication. > -Dave > > [1] https://github.com/bitcoin/bips/blob/158acdbbbf8ef13f6b345b6281a96e88e20d2cf9/bip-truc.mediawiki#user-content-Specification > [2] https://delvingbitcoin.org/t/analysis-of-attempting-to-imbue-ln-commitment-transaction-spends-with-v3-semantics/527 -- https://petertodd.org 'peter'[:-1]@petertodd.org -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Bitcoin Development Mailing List" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to bitcoindev+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/bitcoindev/Zp674YtMTaUX3imH%40petertodd.org. --yP7q3x4oa9g2R/MJ Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQIzBAEBCgAdFiEE0RcYcKRzsEwFZ3N5Lly11TVRLzcFAmaeu9IACgkQLly11TVR Lzfz+Q//TqHPI1ZUalLs5nRP64xm7Bk4LZEJxTr+M+gHM/cMCSmDA4Fnbau1cRbe JYkvyAkjTkjI/ZH8OcLO+17fxc9MX1/mIhARQWFusNvCRD4cf+1boVTWF034bc8o cV5b3y9IiwKNAmzxPE95H3SUGBVNA+a9c4bAcs2FZGSFpKjCQMBQKDHWIczayXAw 59NwswSv4TrbPnTDFqDqT/LDYb/m0njFIfY8vKvnTDn1VmOSvbELn86nC9s/QYPD r+zXGMhhJw0f3HUUen8q94580WJDYsDzr5WHQPCiykNbO/8XzTFRnGHTDzE8wvdF fs7FvsTm7ShX9BxxZG583Ht9JY+VvGPmXvhPAk40itziZi0+Bh96KSfQIThPl0Ta BqjJPjfa0Q0OzEBUMDgl51206jEib3hHQ8izzVfqj0HlttYpXdn8wqOLyKnfswtC GJ0uzYkGhjiuJ+rfkHSufCWTiXIENglkv+fk3De7EPJSHfhwlFmC6lgqx8aA29/K AwQ1Qkdcun8I1zBbh/vuRXxMU3weSKTCecv2Id0zxvEmsF+b4gCm3PlSztECaES9 vOk2tYqeoAMGfeImNHktefkWZg3Oq2ovjjte99c7MEnUMxtYIX3jUXUu7RAC4sEM z1oiBA96/nulTyl8dhpmBI1zNGL5vkaZ7AlI2n6pCJtskyz0P5A= =RbHR -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --yP7q3x4oa9g2R/MJ--