From: Tamas Blummer <tamas.blummer@gmail.com>
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Date: Sun, 30 Jun 2019 21:55:41 +0200
In-Reply-To: <3F46CDD5-DA80-49C8-A51F-8066680EF347@voskuil.org>
To: Eric Voskuil <eric@voskuil.org>
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Cc: Bitcoin Protocol Discussion <bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org>
Subject: Re: [bitcoin-dev] Generalized covenants with taproot enable
 riskless or risky lending,
 prevent credit inflation through fractional reserve
Precedence: list


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> On Jun 30, 2019, at 20:54, Eric Voskuil <eric@voskuil.org> wrote:
>=20
> Could you please explain the meaning and utility of =E2=80=9Cunforgeable=
 register=E2=80=9D as it pertains to such encumbered coins?

I guess we agree that some way of keeping track of ownership is =
prerequisite for something to aquire value.
We likely also agree that the security of that ownership register has =
great influence to the value.

The question remains if a register as utility in itself gives value to =
the thing needed to use that register.
I think it does, if people are interested in what it keeps track of, for =
whatever reason, even for reasons you find bogus.

It was not intentional, but I think I just explained why Ethereum =
aquired higher market value by being register of ICO tokens.

Now back to the coins encumbered with the debt covenant:
Transactions moving them constitute a register of covered debt and you =
need them to update that register.
Should some people find such a register useful then those coins needed =
to update this register will aquire value.
Does not matter if you think the concept of covered debt is just as =
bogus as ICOs.

Here some good news: If they aquire value then they offer a way to =
generate income for hodler by temporarily giving up control.

Tamas Blummer

>=20
> The meaning in terms of Bitcoin is clear - the =E2=80=9Cowner=E2=80=9D =
of outputs that represent value (i.e. in the ability to trade them for =
something else) is recorded publicly and, given Bitcoin security =
assumptions, cannot be faked. What is not clear is the utility of a =
record of outputs that cannot be traded for something else. You seem to =
imply that a record is valuable simply because it=E2=80=99s a record.
>=20
> e
>=20
>> On Jun 30, 2019, at 11:35, Tamas Blummer <tamas.blummer@gmail.com> =
wrote:
>>=20
>>=20
>>> On Jun 30, 2019, at 19:41, Eric Voskuil <eric@voskuil.org> wrote:
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>>> On Jun 30, 2019, at 03:56, Tamas Blummer <tamas.blummer@gmail.com> =
wrote:
>>>>=20
>>>> Hi Eric,
>>>>=20
>>>>> On Jun 29, 2019, at 23:21, Eric Voskuil <eric@voskuil.org> wrote:
>>>>>=20
>>>>> What loan? Alice has paid Bob for something of no possible utility =
to her, or anyone else.
>>>>>=20
>>>>=20
>>>> Coins encumbered with the described covenant represent temporary =
control of a scarce resource.
>>>>=20
>>>> Can this obtain value? That depends on the availability of final =
control and ability to deal with temporary control.
>>>=20
>>> For something to become property (and therefore have marketable =
value) requires that it be both scarce and useful. Bitcoin is useful =
only to the extent that it can be traded for something else that is =
useful. Above you are only dealing with scarcity, ignoring utility.
>>=20
>> There is a deeper utility of Bitcoin than it can be traded for =
something else. That utility is to use its unforgeable register.
>> We have only one kind of units in this register and by having =
covenants we would create other kinds that are while encumbered not =
fungible with the common ones.
>>=20
>> Units are certainly less desirable if encumbered with a debt =
covenant. You say no one would assign them any value.
>>=20
>> I am not that sure as they still offer the utility of using the =
unforgeable register, in this case a register of debt covered by =
reserves.
>> You also doubt forcing debt to be covered by reserves is a good idea, =
I got that, but suppose we do not discuss this here.
>> If there are people who think it is a good idea, then they would find =
having an unforgeable register of it useful and therefore units needed =
to maintain that register valuable to some extent.
>>=20
>>>=20
>>>> I think you do not show the neccesary respect of the market.
>>>=20
>>> I=E2=80=99m not sure what is meant here by respect, or how much of =
it is necessary. I am merely explaining the market.
>>>=20
>>=20
>> You are not explaining an existing market but claim that market that =
is not yet there will follow your arguments.
>>=20
>>>> Your rant reminds me of renowed economists who still argue final =
control Bitcoin can not have value, you do the same proclaiming that =
temporary control of Bitcoin can not have value.
>>>=20
>>> It seems to me you have reversed the meaning of temporary and final. =
Bitcoin is useful because of the presumption that there is no finality =
of control. One presumes an ability to trade control of it for something =
else. This is temporary control. Final control would be the case in =
which, at some point, it can no longer be traded, making it worthless at =
that point. If this is known to be the case it implies that it it =
worthless at all prior points as well.
>>>=20
>>> These are distinct scenarios. The fact that temporary (in my usage) =
control implies the possibility of value does not imply that finality of =
control does as well. The fact that (renowned or otherwise) people have =
made errors does not imply that I am making an error. These are both =
non-sequiturs.
>>>=20
>>>> I say, that temporary control does not have value until means =
dealing with it are offered, and that is I work on. Thereafter might =
obtain value if final control is deemed too expensive or not attainable, =
we shall see.
>>>=20
>>> The analogy to rental of a consumable good does not apply to the =
case of a non-consumable good. If it cannot be traded and cannot be =
consumed it cannot obtain marketable value. To this point it matters not =
whether it exists.
>>>=20
>>=20
>> I meant with control the control of entries in the register which I =
think is the deeper utility of Bitcoin. Final control is meant to be the =
opposite of temporary which is the time limited control with some =
expiry.
>>=20
>> Thank you for your thoughts as they help to sharpen my arguments.
>>=20
>> Best,
>>=20
>> Tamas Blummer
>>=20
>>> Best,
>>> Eric
>>>=20
>>>> Tamas Blummer
>>>>=20
>>>>=20
>>=20


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