Message-ID: <4EEE58CA.5090902@justmoon.de>
Date: Sun, 18 Dec 2011 22:19:06 +0100
From: Stefan Thomas <moon@justmoon.de>
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To: bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net
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	<82659F61-0449-47BB-88DC-497E0D02F8A1@ceptacle.com>
	<CALxbBHUXEJLRDZ=RS1vuvkm7rDjFUPir0sU__f6TJXiTTQxWzA@mail.gmail.com>
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Subject: Re: [Bitcoin-development] Protocol extensions
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Hey Chris,

> The storage would be distributed, messages are routed on behalf of 
> others, which makes finding the origin of the query hard to find 
> (think Tor)

This type of intermediate routing makes Tor slow 
<https://svn.torproject.org/svn/projects/roadmaps/2009-03-11-performance.pdf>. 
Bitcoin does not and imho should not make anonymity guarantees. Many 
users do not need them.

Let those who want anonymity connect through Tor, Freenet, etc. It's 
easy to add anonymity via an extra layer, but it is impossible to add 
performance on top of a slow system.

That's really the only thing I wanted to point out - if you do DHTs, 
focus on performance, not anonymity. :)

Cheers,

Stefan

On 12/17/2011 2:37 PM, Christian Decker wrote:
> A while back I had proposed a similar idea to the DHT, although my 
> main goal was to reduce the need for broadcasts.
>
> My idea was to structure the network in a hypercube and use prefixes 
> to address different parts of the network, and use those prefixes also 
> to find the location where an item (transaction, block, ...) should be 
> stored. Each vertex in the hypercube is a small, highly connected, 
> cluster of nodes. The storage would be distributed, messages are 
> routed on behalf of others, which makes finding the origin of the 
> query hard to find (think Tor), each node would have to store only 
> O(log(p)) items, with p being the prefix length, maximum number of 
> hops is equal to the dimension of the hypercube O(log(n)).
>
> Newly created transaction will be sent directly to the location 
> they'll be stored and miners retrieve new transactions at regular 
> intervals. It might increase delays to the confirmations, but it 
> reduces the number of broadcasts and storage requirements on nodes 
> greatly.
>
> Regards,
> Chris
>
>
> On Sat, Dec 17, 2011 at 2:13 PM, Michael Gr�nager 
> <gronager@ceptacle.com <mailto:gronager@ceptacle.com>> wrote:
>
>     Hey Eric,
>
>     Two comments.
>
>     1.
>     The ability to query for transactions belonging to pubkeys or
>     bitcoin addresses is supported today by several implementations:
>     * blockexplorer.com <http://blockexplorer.com>
>     * bitcoin-js
>     * my own libBTC (will more on this soon)
>
>     To query for transactions you need to use json-rpc and not the
>     bitcoin protocol, however. But still the purpose is the same: to
>     be able to build thin clients that can rely on a server for
>     storing the blockchain and keeping connected on the p2p network.
>
>     The reason for not having these queries part of the standard
>     protocol (I think) are as they breaks anonymity, and that you
>     would actually encourage people to participate in the p2p.
>
>     2. The second part you mention, to some how move the storage of
>     the blockchain into a DHT based storage would be quite nice. The
>     benefit of this is that it could be a way to integrate the smaller
>     clients into the network without breaking the anonymity. But it
>     should be thought out quite carefully. Further, if each client
>     only store a fraction of the blockchain we should work out what
>     fraction that need to be in order to ensure a similar service
>     level. I would be happy to work with you on this.
>
>     Cheers,
>
>     Michael
>
>     On 17/12/2011, at 08:41, Eric Lombrozo wrote:
>
>     > Hey, guys.
>     >
>     > I haven't posted here before so I'll introduce myself. My name's
>     Eric,
>     > I've been developing cryptocurrency-related
>     > software for several months now, I've implemented some libraries for
>     > dealing with core bitcoin datastructures, made
>     > some custom builds of bitcoind and interfaced it with a few apps
>     I've written.
>     >
>     > In doing so, I've come to appreciate just how little of the
>     potential
>     > for the bitcoin protocol is being exploited right now...
>     > not only in terms of the script features but in terms of the
>     potential
>     > commands and node types that could exist.
>     >
>     > For instance, the protocol spec at
>     > https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Protocol_specification only has 16
>     commands
>     > listed and
>     > only one service type...despite having a full 12 bytes for a command
>     > code and a full eight bytes for a services
>     > type.
>     >
>     > The fact that only one node service type is specified is
>     probably due
>     > to the fact that the satoshi client was written
>     > to be a standalone monolithic app that took care of all the
>     essential
>     > needs for a network of peers.
>     > i.e. block chain storage/management, transaction
>     signing/verification,
>     > key generation/wallet management, block mining, etc...
>     > However, I think there's an urgent need for breaking up all these
>     > different tasks into separate components that can run as independent
>     > services on different types of devices.
>     >
>     > One of the big issues I'm dealing with now pertains to block chain
>     > storage. As of right now, it is implemented as sequential
>     > disk files using Berkeley DB in the satoshi client. Then you have
>     > other projects that have been using SQL tables, etc...
>     > But I believe the direction this really needs to move towards is
>     some
>     > sort of distributed hash table...and the database queries
>     > should be performed using the bitcoin protocol itself. Perhaps
>     adding
>     > a few more commands. As things stand right now,
>     > the only way to query for transactions or blocks is by their
>     hash. And
>     > once a transaction gets incorporated into a block and
>     > removed from the transaction pool, one can no longer query it by the
>     > transaction hash without stepping outside the bitcoin protocol.
>     > We need access to the disk file that stores the blocks whether it be
>     > via Berkeley DB or SQL or whatever.
>     >
>     > I propose an extension to the bitcoin protocol to provide
>     methods for
>     > performing more sophisticated queries, such as "Give me
>     > an inventory of transactions involving this particular public
>     key" or
>     > "Give me an inventory all transactions in the last n blocks with
>     > unredeemed outputs." This could be done by adding a few more
>     commands.
>     >
>     > Furthermore, I propose a new network services type for nodes that
>     > serve as block chain/transaction pool storage.
>     >
>     > Of couse, any peer that wishes to verify the integrity of the block
>     > chain would still have to download at the very least
>     > all the block headers...and to be completely sure, also all the
>     blocks
>     > themselves...and verify everything. But it would be
>     > very nice to be able to run thin services that can rely on other
>     > network peers to do this work. It is still possible to attain
>     > a high level of confidence in the integrity by querying multiple
>     peers
>     > for similar objects and comparing. It is also possible
>     > to run your own dedicated block chain storage servers which you
>     trust.
>     >
>     > There are other ideas I have for other types of services, too.
>     >
>     > Anyhow, I'm just throwing this out there...if anyone's
>     interested I'd
>     > love to develop these ideas further and help put together some
>     > specs.
>     >
>     > -Eric Lombrozo
>     >
>     >
>     ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>     > Learn Windows Azure Live!  Tuesday, Dec 13, 2011
>     > Microsoft is holding a special Learn Windows Azure training
>     event for
>     > developers. It will provide a great way to learn Windows Azure
>     and what it
>     > provides. You can attend the event by watching it streamed LIVE
>     online.
>     > Learn more at http://p.sf.net/sfu/ms-windowsazure
>     > _______________________________________________
>     > Bitcoin-development mailing list
>     > Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net
>     <mailto:Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net>
>     > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development
>
>
>
>     ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>     Learn Windows Azure Live!  Tuesday, Dec 13, 2011
>     Microsoft is holding a special Learn Windows Azure training event for
>     developers. It will provide a great way to learn Windows Azure and
>     what it
>     provides. You can attend the event by watching it streamed LIVE
>     online.
>     Learn more at http://p.sf.net/sfu/ms-windowsazure
>     _______________________________________________
>     Bitcoin-development mailing list
>     Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net
>     <mailto:Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net>
>     https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Learn Windows Azure Live!  Tuesday, Dec 13, 2011
> Microsoft is holding a special Learn Windows Azure training event for
> developers. It will provide a great way to learn Windows Azure and what it
> provides. You can attend the event by watching it streamed LIVE online.
> Learn more at http://p.sf.net/sfu/ms-windowsazure
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Bitcoin-development mailing list
> Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development


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    Hey Chris,<br>
    <br>
    <blockquote type="cite">The storage would be distributed, messages
      are routed on behalf of others, which makes finding the origin of
      the query hard to find (think Tor)</blockquote>
    <br>
    This type of intermediate routing makes Tor <a
href="https://svn.torproject.org/svn/projects/roadmaps/2009-03-11-performance.pdf">slow</a>.
    Bitcoin does not and imho should not make anonymity guarantees. Many
    users do not need them.<br>
    <br>
    Let those who want anonymity connect through Tor, Freenet, etc. It's
    easy to add anonymity via an extra layer, but it is impossible to
    add performance on top of a slow system.<br>
    <br>
    That's really the only thing I wanted to point out - if you do DHTs,
    focus on performance, not anonymity. :)<br>
    <br>
    Cheers,<br>
    <br>
    Stefan<br>
    <br>
    On 12/17/2011 2:37 PM, Christian Decker wrote:
    <blockquote
cite="mid:CALxbBHUXEJLRDZ=RS1vuvkm7rDjFUPir0sU__f6TJXiTTQxWzA@mail.gmail.com"
      type="cite">A while back I had proposed a similar idea to the DHT,
      although my main goal was to reduce the need for broadcasts.<br>
      <br>
      My idea was to structure the network in a hypercube and use
      prefixes to address different parts of the network, and use those
      prefixes also to find the location where an item (transaction,
      block, ...) should be stored. Each vertex in the hypercube is a
      small, highly connected, cluster of nodes. The storage would be
      distributed, messages are routed on behalf of others, which makes
      finding the origin of the query hard to find (think Tor), each
      node would have to store only O(log(p)) items, with p being the
      prefix length, maximum number of hops is equal to the dimension of
      the hypercube O(log(n)).<br>
      <br>
      Newly created transaction will be sent directly to the location
      they'll be stored and miners retrieve new transactions at regular
      intervals. It might increase delays to the confirmations, but it
      reduces the number of broadcasts and storage requirements on nodes
      greatly.<br>
      <br>
      Regards,<br>
      Chris<br clear="all">
      <br>
      <br>
      <div class="gmail_quote">On Sat, Dec 17, 2011 at 2:13 PM, Michael
        Gr&oslash;nager <span dir="ltr">&lt;<a moz-do-not-send="true"
            href="mailto:gronager@ceptacle.com">gronager@ceptacle.com</a>&gt;</span>
        wrote:<br>
        <blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0
          .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">Hey Eric,<br>
          <br>
          Two comments.<br>
          <br>
          1.<br>
          The ability to query for transactions belonging to pubkeys or
          bitcoin addresses is supported today by several
          implementations:<br>
          * <a moz-do-not-send="true" href="http://blockexplorer.com"
            target="_blank">blockexplorer.com</a><br>
          * bitcoin-js<br>
          * my own libBTC (will more on this soon)<br>
          <br>
          To query for transactions you need to use json-rpc and not the
          bitcoin protocol, however. But still the purpose is the same:
          to be able to build thin clients that can rely on a server for
          storing the blockchain and keeping connected on the p2p
          network.<br>
          <br>
          The reason for not having these queries part of the standard
          protocol (I think) are as they breaks anonymity, and that you
          would actually encourage people to participate in the p2p.<br>
          <br>
          2. The second part you mention, to some how move the storage
          of the blockchain into a DHT based storage would be quite
          nice. The benefit of this is that it could be a way to
          integrate the smaller clients into the network without
          breaking the anonymity. But it should be thought out quite
          carefully. Further, if each client only store a fraction of
          the blockchain we should work out what fraction that need to
          be in order to ensure a similar service level. I would be
          happy to work with you on this.<br>
          <br>
          Cheers,<br>
          <br>
          Michael<br>
          <div class="HOEnZb">
            <div class="h5"><br>
              On 17/12/2011, at 08:41, Eric Lombrozo wrote:<br>
              <br>
              &gt; Hey, guys.<br>
              &gt;<br>
              &gt; I haven't posted here before so I'll introduce
              myself. My name's Eric,<br>
              &gt; I've been developing cryptocurrency-related<br>
              &gt; software for several months now, I've implemented
              some libraries for<br>
              &gt; dealing with core bitcoin datastructures, made<br>
              &gt; some custom builds of bitcoind and interfaced it with
              a few apps I've written.<br>
              &gt;<br>
              &gt; In doing so, I've come to appreciate just how little
              of the potential<br>
              &gt; for the bitcoin protocol is being exploited right
              now...<br>
              &gt; not only in terms of the script features but in terms
              of the potential<br>
              &gt; commands and node types that could exist.<br>
              &gt;<br>
              &gt; For instance, the protocol spec at<br>
              &gt; <a moz-do-not-send="true"
                href="https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Protocol_specification"
                target="_blank">https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Protocol_specification</a>
              only has 16 commands<br>
              &gt; listed and<br>
              &gt; only one service type...despite having a full 12
              bytes for a command<br>
              &gt; code and a full eight bytes for a services<br>
              &gt; type.<br>
              &gt;<br>
              &gt; The fact that only one node service type is specified
              is probably due<br>
              &gt; to the fact that the satoshi client was written<br>
              &gt; to be a standalone monolithic app that took care of
              all the essential<br>
              &gt; needs for a network of peers.<br>
              &gt; i.e. block chain storage/management, transaction
              signing/verification,<br>
              &gt; key generation/wallet management, block mining,
              etc...<br>
              &gt; However, I think there's an urgent need for breaking
              up all these<br>
              &gt; different tasks into separate components that can run
              as independent<br>
              &gt; services on different types of devices.<br>
              &gt;<br>
              &gt; One of the big issues I'm dealing with now pertains
              to block chain<br>
              &gt; storage. As of right now, it is implemented as
              sequential<br>
              &gt; disk files using Berkeley DB in the satoshi client.
              Then you have<br>
              &gt; other projects that have been using SQL tables,
              etc...<br>
              &gt; But I believe the direction this really needs to move
              towards is some<br>
              &gt; sort of distributed hash table...and the database
              queries<br>
              &gt; should be performed using the bitcoin protocol
              itself. Perhaps adding<br>
              &gt; a few more commands. As things stand right now,<br>
              &gt; the only way to query for transactions or blocks is
              by their hash. And<br>
              &gt; once a transaction gets incorporated into a block and<br>
              &gt; removed from the transaction pool, one can no longer
              query it by the<br>
              &gt; transaction hash without stepping outside the bitcoin
              protocol.<br>
              &gt; We need access to the disk file that stores the
              blocks whether it be<br>
              &gt; via Berkeley DB or SQL or whatever.<br>
              &gt;<br>
              &gt; I propose an extension to the bitcoin protocol to
              provide methods for<br>
              &gt; performing more sophisticated queries, such as "Give
              me<br>
              &gt; an inventory of transactions involving this
              particular public key" or<br>
              &gt; "Give me an inventory all transactions in the last n
              blocks with<br>
              &gt; unredeemed outputs." This could be done by adding a
              few more commands.<br>
              &gt;<br>
              &gt; Furthermore, I propose a new network services type
              for nodes that<br>
              &gt; serve as block chain/transaction pool storage.<br>
              &gt;<br>
              &gt; Of couse, any peer that wishes to verify the
              integrity of the block<br>
              &gt; chain would still have to download at the very least<br>
              &gt; all the block headers...and to be completely sure,
              also all the blocks<br>
              &gt; themselves...and verify everything. But it would be<br>
              &gt; very nice to be able to run thin services that can
              rely on other<br>
              &gt; network peers to do this work. It is still possible
              to attain<br>
              &gt; a high level of confidence in the integrity by
              querying multiple peers<br>
              &gt; for similar objects and comparing. It is also
              possible<br>
              &gt; to run your own dedicated block chain storage servers
              which you trust.<br>
              &gt;<br>
              &gt; There are other ideas I have for other types of
              services, too.<br>
              &gt;<br>
              &gt; Anyhow, I'm just throwing this out there...if
              anyone's interested I'd<br>
              &gt; love to develop these ideas further and help put
              together some<br>
              &gt; specs.<br>
              &gt;<br>
              &gt; -Eric Lombrozo<br>
              &gt;<br>
              &gt;
------------------------------------------------------------------------------<br>
              &gt; Learn Windows Azure Live! &nbsp;Tuesday, Dec 13, 2011<br>
              &gt; Microsoft is holding a special Learn Windows Azure
              training event for<br>
              &gt; developers. It will provide a great way to learn
              Windows Azure and what it<br>
              &gt; provides. You can attend the event by watching it
              streamed LIVE online.<br>
              &gt; Learn more at <a moz-do-not-send="true"
                href="http://p.sf.net/sfu/ms-windowsazure"
                target="_blank">http://p.sf.net/sfu/ms-windowsazure</a><br>
              &gt; _______________________________________________<br>
              &gt; Bitcoin-development mailing list<br>
              &gt; <a moz-do-not-send="true"
                href="mailto:Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net">Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net</a><br>
              &gt; <a moz-do-not-send="true"
                href="https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development"
                target="_blank">https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development</a><br>
              <br>
              <br>
              <br>
------------------------------------------------------------------------------<br>
              Learn Windows Azure Live! &nbsp;Tuesday, Dec 13, 2011<br>
              Microsoft is holding a special Learn Windows Azure
              training event for<br>
              developers. It will provide a great way to learn Windows
              Azure and what it<br>
              provides. You can attend the event by watching it streamed
              LIVE online.<br>
              Learn more at <a moz-do-not-send="true"
                href="http://p.sf.net/sfu/ms-windowsazure"
                target="_blank">http://p.sf.net/sfu/ms-windowsazure</a><br>
              _______________________________________________<br>
              Bitcoin-development mailing list<br>
              <a moz-do-not-send="true"
                href="mailto:Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net">Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net</a><br>
              <a moz-do-not-send="true"
                href="https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development"
                target="_blank">https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development</a><br>
            </div>
          </div>
        </blockquote>
      </div>
      <br>
      <br>
      <fieldset class="mimeAttachmentHeader"></fieldset>
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      <pre wrap="">------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Learn Windows Azure Live!  Tuesday, Dec 13, 2011
Microsoft is holding a special Learn Windows Azure training event for 
developers. It will provide a great way to learn Windows Azure and what it 
provides. You can attend the event by watching it streamed LIVE online.  
Learn more at <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://p.sf.net/sfu/ms-windowsazure">http://p.sf.net/sfu/ms-windowsazure</a></pre>
      <br>
      <fieldset class="mimeAttachmentHeader"></fieldset>
      <br>
      <pre wrap="">_______________________________________________
Bitcoin-development mailing list
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net">Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net</a>
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development">https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development</a>
</pre>
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