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Date: Tue, 29 Sep 2015 14:01:59 -0400
Message-ID: <CABsx9T07DUjWoEmqmysya90Fxf4RkM7K18ZaP7pP3Hgk5rN-_Q@mail.gmail.com>
From: Gavin Andresen <gavinandresen@gmail.com>
To: Allen Piscitello <allen.piscitello@gmail.com>
Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a11c3d06a391e020520e69c2f
Cc: Bitcoin Dev <bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org>
Subject: Re: [bitcoin-dev] Is it possible for there to be two chains after a
 hard fork?
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We really shouldn't have to go over "Bitcoin 101" on this mailing list, and
this discussion should move to the not-yet-created more general discussion
list.  I started this thread as a sanity check on myself, because I keep
seeing smart people saying that two chains could persist for more than a
few days after a hard fork, and I still don't see how that would possibly
work.

So: "fraud" would be 51% miners sending you bitcoin in exchange for
something of value, you wait for confirmations and send them that something
of value, and then the 51% reverses the transaction.

Running a full node doesn't help.

On Tue, Sep 29, 2015 at 1:55 PM, Allen Piscitello <
allen.piscitello@gmail.com> wrote:

> >A dishonest miner majority can commit fraud against you, they can mine
> only empty blocks, they can do various other things that render your money
> worthless.
>
> Mining empty blocks is not fraud.
>
> If you want to use terms like "honest miners" and "fraud", please define
> them so we can at least be on the same page.
>
> I am defining an honest miner as one that follows the rules of the
> protocol.  Obviously your definition is different.
>
> On Tue, Sep 29, 2015 at 12:51 PM, Mike Hearn <hearn@vinumeris.com> wrote:
>
>> >because Bitcoin's basic security assumption is that a supermajority of
>>> miners are 'honest.'
>>>
>>> Only if you rely on SPV.
>>>
>>
>> No, you rely on miners honesty even if you run a full node. This is in
>> the white paper. A dishonest miner majority can commit fraud against you,
>> they can mine only empty blocks, they can do various other things that
>> render your money worthless.
>>
>
>


-- 
--
Gavin Andresen

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<div dir=3D"ltr">We really shouldn&#39;t have to go over &quot;Bitcoin 101&=
quot; on this mailing list, and this discussion should move to the not-yet-=
created more general discussion list.=C2=A0 I started this thread as a sani=
ty check on myself, because I keep seeing smart people saying that two chai=
ns could persist for more than a few days after a hard fork, and I still do=
n&#39;t see how that would possibly work.<div><br></div><div>So: &quot;frau=
d&quot; would be 51% miners sending you bitcoin in exchange for something o=
f value, you wait for confirmations and send them that something of value, =
and then the 51% reverses the transaction.</div><div><br></div><div>Running=
 a full node doesn&#39;t help.</div><div><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><di=
v class=3D"gmail_quote">On Tue, Sep 29, 2015 at 1:55 PM, Allen Piscitello <=
span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:allen.piscitello@gmail.com" target=
=3D"_blank">allen.piscitello@gmail.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote=
 class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc soli=
d;padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><span class=3D"">&gt;<span style=3D"fo=
nt-size:12.8px">A dishonest miner majority can commit fraud against you, th=
ey can mine only empty blocks, they can do various other things that render=
 your money worthless.</span><div><span style=3D"font-size:12.8px"><br></sp=
an></div></span><div><span style=3D"font-size:12.8px">Mining empty blocks i=
s not fraud.</span></div><div><span style=3D"font-size:12.8px"><br></span><=
/div><div><span style=3D"font-size:12.8px">If you want to use terms like &q=
uot;honest miners&quot; and &quot;fraud&quot;, please define them so we can=
 at least be on the same page.</span></div><div><span style=3D"font-size:12=
.8px"><br></span></div><div><span style=3D"font-size:12.8px">I am defining =
an honest miner as one that follows the rules of the protocol.=C2=A0 Obviou=
sly your definition is different.</span></div></div><div class=3D"HOEnZb"><=
div class=3D"h5"><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">=
On Tue, Sep 29, 2015 at 12:51 PM, Mike Hearn <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=
=3D"mailto:hearn@vinumeris.com" target=3D"_blank">hearn@vinumeris.com</a>&g=
t;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0=
 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div cl=
ass=3D"gmail_extra"><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><span><blockquote class=3D"g=
mail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-l=
eft:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><span><div><span style=3D"font-size:12.8px">&gt;<=
/span><span style=3D"font-size:12.8px">because Bitcoin&#39;s basic security=
 assumption is that a supermajority of miners are &#39;honest.&#39;</span><=
/div><div><span style=3D"font-size:12.8px"><br></span></div></span><div><sp=
an style=3D"font-size:12.8px">Only if you rely on SPV.</span></div></div></=
blockquote><div><br></div></span><div>No, you rely on miners honesty even i=
f you run a full node. This is in the white paper. A dishonest miner majori=
ty can commit fraud against you, they can mine only empty blocks, they can =
do various other things that render your money worthless.</div></div></div>=
</div>
</blockquote></div><br></div>
</div></div></blockquote></div><br><br clear=3D"all"><div><br></div>-- <br>=
<div class=3D"gmail_signature">--<br>Gavin Andresen<br></div>
</div></div></div>

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