Date: Tue, 14 Sep 2021 16:50:16 +0200 (CEST)
From: Prayank <prayank@tutanota.de>
To: Michael Folkson <michaelfolkson@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <MjZmMzE--3-2@tutanota.de>
In-Reply-To: <CAFvNmHRt2L+D1jkVJmUsiZ8Fpeqqioygk+eZkP7+8r2p3Dx6_Q@mail.gmail.com>
References: <MjZEVeZ--3-2@tutanota.de>
 <CAFvNmHRt2L+D1jkVJmUsiZ8Fpeqqioygk+eZkP7+8r2p3Dx6_Q@mail.gmail.com>
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Cc: Bitcoin Dev <bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org>
Subject: Re: [bitcoin-dev] BIP process meeting - Tuesday September 14th
 23:00 UTC on #bitcoin-dev Libera IRC
Precedence: list

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> A mailing list post is static and a BIP will go normally go through multi=
ple edits and revisions so you do need to take advantage of the Git version=
 control system. It gets quite unwieldy to attempt to do that via a mailing=
 list with every minor suggested edit getting sent to all subscribers.

 Mailing list post will have the link to BIP documentation. Post itself doe=
sn't need to be updated but same link can be used to share updated informat=
ion. Example: https://gist.github.com/prayank23/95b4804777fefd015d7cc4f8476=
75d7f=C2=A0(Image can be changed in gist when required or add new informati=
on)
Mailing list post will help in reading discussions related to proposal.

>Also allowing the entire global population
(billions of people) to be able to create a directory doesn't sound
like a good idea to me :)

There is nothing to allow/disallow. That's the whole point. People are free=
 to save links and organize things which can be called a BIP directory.

> I can only speak for myself here but I am not particularly concerned abou=
t this perception of authority.=20

This perception affects Bitcoin.=20

> In the same way as there are limits on the ability of Core maintainers to=
 unilaterally merge in contentious code changes there are similar limits on=
 the ability of BIP editors. Ultimately anyone merging a PR has to consider=
 process/consensus and concerns can (and have been in the past) be raised o=
n this mailing list or elsewhere.

Bitcoin Core is an implementation (used by most of the nodes right now). BI=
Ps are proposals for Bitcoin. Using same organization on GitHub and such co=
mparisons can be misleading for many. I don't think we need ACKs/NACKs in B=
IPs repository and I feel weird to be a part of discussions, ACKing this pu=
ll request:=C2=A0https://github.com/bitcoin/bips/pull/1104. Not sure any Bi=
tcoin project needs a pull request merged in this repository to implement a=
 proposal.

>=C2=A0I'm not sure where you are suggesting a bot should be.

A bot similar to DrahtBot in Bitcoin Core repository.=C2=A0
Few other developers had suggested similar thing earlier:

https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/bitcoin-dev/2021-April/018859.h=
tml

https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/bitcoin-dev/2021-April/018868.h=
tml

https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/bitcoin-dev/2021-April/018869.h=
tml

https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/bitcoin-dev/2021-April/018871.h=
tml

--=20
Prayank

A3B1 E430 2298 178F



Sep 14, 2021, 19:37 by michaelfolkson@gmail.com:

> Hey Prayank
>
> Thanks for the suggestions.
>
>> bitcoin-dev mailing list link can be considered a BIP and saved in a BIP=
 directory. Anyone can create such directories. So BIP is nothing but a pro=
posal shared on bitcoin-dev mailing list.
>>
>
> A mailing list post is static and a BIP will go normally go through
> multiple edits and revisions so you do need to take advantage of the
> Git version control system. It gets quite unwieldy to attempt to do
> that via a mailing list with every minor suggested edit getting sent
> to all subscribers. Also allowing the entire global population
> (billions of people) to be able to create a directory doesn't sound
> like a good idea to me :)
>
>> This will avoid the 'bitcoin/bips' repository being considered as some B=
IP authority that approves BIPs and proposals can improve Bitcoin without u=
sing the repository. Repository will only be helpful in documenting BIP cor=
rectly.
>>
>
> I can only speak for myself here but I am not particularly concerned
> about this perception of authority. We need a central repo that we can
> all refer to (rather than BIPs being distributed across a large number
> of repos) and that central repo needs to managed and maintained by
> somebody (in this case the two BIP editors Kalle and Luke). In the
> same way as there are limits on the ability of Core maintainers to
> unilaterally merge in contentious code changes there are similar
> limits on the ability of BIP editors. Ultimately anyone merging a PR
> has to consider process/consensus and concerns can (and have been in
> the past) be raised on this mailing list or elsewhere.
>
>> 2. Bot in `bitcoin/bips` repository that notifies about pull requests ba=
sed on different things. This will help maintainer(s) and contributors.
>>
>
> I'm not sure where you are suggesting a bot should be. On IRC? There
> is a BIP merges bot on Mastodon[0] that I'm aware of and obviously you
> can subscribe to GitHub repo notification emails.
>
>> 3. BIP Gallery: I tried sharing things in a different way so that newbie=
s can understand importance of BIPs in Bitcoin and relate to it: https://pr=
ayank23.github.io/BIPsGallery/ however couldn't complete it with all the BI=
Ps because not many people considered it helpful. There were few suggestion=
s to improve it by adding some text for each BIP and better image gallery. =
Maybe someone else can create a better project.
>>
>
> This looks cool. I think we can definitely do better in encouraging
> more people to engage with the BIP process especially as the ideas
> start flowing in post Taproot activation brainstorming what should be
> in the "next soft fork" (trademark!). Some of the BIPs (e.g. the
> Taproot BIPs 340-342) are quite technically dense so someone on IRC
> suggested making greater use of informational BIPs to supplement the
> standard BIPs for new implementers or even casual readers.
>
> [0] https://x0f.org/@bipmerges
>
> On Tue, Sep 14, 2021 at 1:17 PM Prayank <prayank@tutanota.de> wrote:
>
>>
>> Hi Michael,
>>
>> Thanks for sharing the details about the meeting.
>>
>> Wishlist has some interesting points. I would like to suggest few things=
:
>>
>> 1.BIP process:
>>
>> A. Plan and document a proposal
>>
>> B. Open PR in https://github.com/bitcoin/bips and edit everything proper=
ly
>>
>> C. BIP is assigned a number and merged
>>
>> D. Share the proposal on bitcoin dev mailing list
>>
>> bitcoin-dev mailing list link can be considered a BIP and saved in a BIP=
 directory. Anyone can create such directories. So BIP is nothing but a pro=
posal shared on bitcoin-dev mailing list.
>>
>> Who implements the BIP? When is it implemented? How is it implemented? O=
pinions on proposal etc. will be different for each BIP. This will avoid th=
e 'bitcoin/bips' repository being considered as some BIP authority that app=
roves BIPs and proposals can improve Bitcoin without using the repository. =
Repository will only be helpful in documenting BIP correctly.
>>
>> 2. Bot in `bitcoin/bips` repository that notifies about pull requests ba=
sed on different things. This will help maintainer(s) and contributors.
>>
>> 3. BIP Gallery: I tried sharing things in a different way so that newbie=
s can understand importance of BIPs in Bitcoin and relate to it: https://pr=
ayank23.github.io/BIPsGallery/ however couldn't complete it with all the BI=
Ps because not many people considered it helpful. There were few suggestion=
s to improve it by adding some text for each BIP and better image gallery. =
Maybe someone else can create a better project.
>>
>>
>> --
>> Prayank
>>
>> A3B1 E430 2298 178F
>>
>
>
>
> --=20
> Michael Folkson
> Email: michaelfolkson@gmail.com
> Keybase: michaelfolkson
> PGP: 43ED C999 9F85 1D40 EAF4 9835 92D6 0159 214C FEE3
>


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<div>&gt; A mailing list post is static and a BIP will go normally go throu=
gh multiple edits and revisions so you do need to take advantage of the Git=
 version control system. It gets quite unwieldy to attempt to do that via a=
 mailing list with every minor suggested edit getting sent to all subscribe=
rs.<br></div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto"> Mailing list po=
st will have the link to BIP documentation. Post itself doesn't need to be =
updated but same link can be used to share updated information. Example: ht=
tps://gist.github.com/prayank23/95b4804777fefd015d7cc4f847675d7f&nbsp;(Imag=
e can be changed in gist when required or add new information)</div><div di=
r=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto">Mailing list post will help in readi=
ng discussions related to proposal.<br></div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><d=
iv dir=3D"auto">&gt;Also allowing the entire global population<br></div><di=
v dir=3D"auto">(billions of people) to be able to create a directory doesn'=
t sound<br></div><div dir=3D"auto">like a good idea to me :)<br></div><div =
dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto">There is nothing to allow/disallow=
. That's the whole point. People are free to save links and organize things=
 which can be called a BIP directory.<br></div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div>=
<div dir=3D"auto">&gt; I can only speak for myself here but I am not partic=
ularly concerned about this perception of authority. <br></div><div dir=3D"=
auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto">This perception affects Bitcoin. <br></di=
v><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto">&gt; In the same way as the=
re are limits on the ability of Core maintainers to unilaterally merge in c=
ontentious code changes there are similar limits on the ability of BIP edit=
ors. Ultimately anyone merging a PR has to consider process/consensus and c=
oncerns can (and have been in the past) be raised on this mailing list or e=
lsewhere.<br></div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto">Bitcoin Co=
re is an implementation (used by most of the nodes right now). BIPs are pro=
posals for Bitcoin. Using same organization on GitHub and such comparisons =
can be misleading for many. I don't think we need ACKs/NACKs in BIPs reposi=
tory and I feel weird to be a part of discussions, ACKing this pull request=
:&nbsp;https://github.com/bitcoin/bips/pull/1104. Not sure any Bitcoin proj=
ect needs a pull request merged in this repository to implement a proposal.=
<br></div><div><div><br></div><div>&gt;&nbsp;I'm not sure where you are sug=
gesting a bot should be.<br><br>A bot similar to DrahtBot in Bitcoin Core r=
epository.&nbsp;</div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto">Few oth=
er developers had suggested similar thing earlier:<br></div><div dir=3D"aut=
o"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto">https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/=
bitcoin-dev/2021-April/018859.html<br></div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><di=
v dir=3D"auto">https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/bitcoin-dev/2021=
-April/018868.html<br></div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto">h=
ttps://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/bitcoin-dev/2021-April/018869.ht=
ml<br></div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto">https://lists.lin=
uxfoundation.org/pipermail/bitcoin-dev/2021-April/018871.html<br></div><div=
 dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div>-- <br></div></div><div>Prayank<br></div><div>=
<br></div><div dir=3D"auto">A3B1 E430 2298 178F<br></div><div><br></div><di=
v><br></div><div><br></div><div>Sep 14, 2021, 19:37 by michaelfolkson@gmail=
.com:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"tutanota_quote" style=3D"border-left: 1=
px solid #93A3B8; padding-left: 10px; margin-left: 5px;"><div>Hey Prayank<b=
r></div><div><br></div><div>Thanks for the suggestions.<br></div><blockquot=
e>bitcoin-dev mailing list link can be considered a BIP and saved in a BIP =
directory. Anyone can create such directories. So BIP is nothing but a prop=
osal shared on bitcoin-dev mailing list.<br></blockquote><div><br></div><di=
v>A mailing list post is static and a BIP will go normally go through<br></=
div><div>multiple edits and revisions so you do need to take advantage of t=
he<br></div><div>Git version control system. It gets quite unwieldy to atte=
mpt to do<br></div><div>that via a mailing list with every minor suggested =
edit getting sent<br></div><div>to all subscribers. Also allowing the entir=
e global population<br></div><div>(billions of people) to be able to create=
 a directory doesn't sound<br></div><div>like a good idea to me :)<br></div=
><blockquote>This will avoid the 'bitcoin/bips' repository being considered=
 as some BIP authority that approves BIPs and proposals can improve Bitcoin=
 without using the repository. Repository will only be helpful in documenti=
ng BIP correctly.<br></blockquote><div><br></div><div>I can only speak for =
myself here but I am not particularly concerned<br></div><div>about this pe=
rception of authority. We need a central repo that we can<br></div><div>all=
 refer to (rather than BIPs being distributed across a large number<br></di=
v><div>of repos) and that central repo needs to managed and maintained by<b=
r></div><div>somebody (in this case the two BIP editors Kalle and Luke). In=
 the<br></div><div>same way as there are limits on the ability of Core main=
tainers to<br></div><div>unilaterally merge in contentious code changes the=
re are similar<br></div><div>limits on the ability of BIP editors. Ultimate=
ly anyone merging a PR<br></div><div>has to consider process/consensus and =
concerns can (and have been in<br></div><div>the past) be raised on this ma=
iling list or elsewhere.<br></div><blockquote>2. Bot in `bitcoin/bips` repo=
sitory that notifies about pull requests based on different things. This wi=
ll help maintainer(s) and contributors.<br></blockquote><div><br></div><div=
>I'm not sure where you are suggesting a bot should be. On IRC? There<br></=
div><div>is a BIP merges bot on Mastodon[0] that I'm aware of and obviously=
 you<br></div><div>can subscribe to GitHub repo notification emails.<br></d=
iv><blockquote>3. BIP Gallery: I tried sharing things in a different way so=
 that newbies can understand importance of BIPs in Bitcoin and relate to it=
: https://prayank23.github.io/BIPsGallery/ however couldn't complete it wit=
h all the BIPs because not many people considered it helpful. There were fe=
w suggestions to improve it by adding some text for each BIP and better ima=
ge gallery. Maybe someone else can create a better project.<br></blockquote=
><div><br></div><div>This looks cool. I think we can definitely do better i=
n encouraging<br></div><div>more people to engage with the BIP process espe=
cially as the ideas<br></div><div>start flowing in post Taproot activation =
brainstorming what should be<br></div><div>in the "next soft fork" (tradema=
rk!). Some of the BIPs (e.g. the<br></div><div>Taproot BIPs 340-342) are qu=
ite technically dense so someone on IRC<br></div><div>suggested making grea=
ter use of informational BIPs to supplement the<br></div><div>standard BIPs=
 for new implementers or even casual readers.<br></div><div><br></div><div>=
[0] https://x0f.org/@bipmerges<br></div><div><br></div><div>On Tue, Sep 14,=
 2021 at 1:17 PM Prayank &lt;prayank@tutanota.de&gt; wrote:<br></div><block=
quote><div><br></div><div>Hi Michael,<br></div><div><br></div><div>Thanks f=
or sharing the details about the meeting.<br></div><div><br></div><div>Wish=
list has some interesting points. I would like to suggest few things:<br></=
div><div><br></div><div>1.BIP process:<br></div><div><br></div><div>A. Plan=
 and document a proposal<br></div><div><br></div><div>B. Open PR in https:/=
/github.com/bitcoin/bips and edit everything properly<br></div><div><br></d=
iv><div>C. BIP is assigned a number and merged<br></div><div><br></div><div=
>D. Share the proposal on bitcoin dev mailing list<br></div><div><br></div>=
<div>bitcoin-dev mailing list link can be considered a BIP and saved in a B=
IP directory. Anyone can create such directories. So BIP is nothing but a p=
roposal shared on bitcoin-dev mailing list.<br></div><div><br></div><div>Wh=
o implements the BIP? When is it implemented? How is it implemented? Opinio=
ns on proposal etc. will be different for each BIP. This will avoid the 'bi=
tcoin/bips' repository being considered as some BIP authority that approves=
 BIPs and proposals can improve Bitcoin without using the repository. Repos=
itory will only be helpful in documenting BIP correctly.<br></div><div><br>=
</div><div>2. Bot in `bitcoin/bips` repository that notifies about pull req=
uests based on different things. This will help maintainer(s) and contribut=
ors.<br></div><div><br></div><div>3. BIP Gallery: I tried sharing things in=
 a different way so that newbies can understand importance of BIPs in Bitco=
in and relate to it: https://prayank23.github.io/BIPsGallery/ however could=
n't complete it with all the BIPs because not many people considered it hel=
pful. There were few suggestions to improve it by adding some text for each=
 BIP and better image gallery. Maybe someone else can create a better proje=
ct.<br></div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div>--<br></div><div>Prayank<br=
></div><div><br></div><div>A3B1 E430 2298 178F<br></div></blockquote><div><=
br></div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div>-- <br></div><div>Michael Folks=
on<br></div><div>Email: michaelfolkson@gmail.com<br></div><div>Keybase: mic=
haelfolkson<br></div><div>PGP: 43ED C999 9F85 1D40 EAF4 9835 92D6 0159 214C=
 FEE3<br></div></blockquote><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div>  </body>
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