Date: Sun, 1 Mar 2015 11:59:50 -0600
From: Troy Benjegerdes <hozer@hozed.org>
To: Eric Lombrozo <elombrozo@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20150301175950.GV14804@nl.grid.coop>
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Cc: Bitcoin Dev <bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net>
Subject: Re: [Bitcoin-development] replace-by-fee v0.10.0rc4
Precedence: list

So let's play this out a little.. Let's call it "Solomon's spend[1]"

Exchange gets hacked, bitcoins move.

The exchange has a contract with an insurance company and miners for=20
'scorched earth' theft response that creates a double-spend of the=20
original transaction.

So now there's a 10,000 bitcoin incentive for miners to roll back the
chain and start (re)mining the block where the theft occurred.

The exchange gets an insurance payout, some miner wins the lottery, and
the thief gets nothing. Seems like a good deal, what am I missing?

[1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Judgment_of_Solomon

On Sun, Feb 22, 2015 at 04:06:13AM -0800, Eric Lombrozo wrote:
> I should note that my proposal does require a change to the consensus
> rules...but getting bitcoin to scale will require this no matter what.
>=20
> - Eric Lombrozo
> On Feb 22, 2015 3:41 AM, "Eric Lombrozo" <elombrozo@gmail.com> wrote:
>=20
> > It seems to me we're confusing two completely different motivations f=
or
> > double-spending. One is the ability to replace a fee, the other is th=
e
> > ability to replace outputs.
> >
> > If the double-spend were to merely add or remove inputs (but keep at =
least
> > one input in common, of course), it seems fairly safe to assume it's =
the
> > former, a genuine fee replacement. Even allowing for things like coin=
join,
> > none of the payees would really care either way.
> >
> > Conversely, if at least one of the inputs were kept but none of the
> > outputs were, we can be confident it's the the latter.
> >
> > It is possible to build a wallet that always does the former when doi=
ng
> > fee replacement by using another transaction to create an output with
> > exactly the additional desired fee.
> >
> > If we can clearly distinguish these two cases then the fee replacemen=
t
> > case can be handled by relaying both and letting miners pick one or t=
he
> > other while the output replacement case could be handled by rewarding
> > everything to a miner (essentially all outputs are voided...made
> > unredeemable...and all inputs are added to coinbase) if the miner inc=
ludes
> > the two conflicting transactions in the same block.
> >
> > Wouldn't this essentially solve the problem?
> >
> > - Eric Lombrozo
> > On Feb 21, 2015 8:09 PM, "Jeff Garzik" <jgarzik@bitpay.com> wrote:
> >
> >> On Sat, Feb 21, 2015 at 10:25 PM, Jorge Tim=F3n <jtimon@jtimon.cc> w=
rote:
> >> > On Sat, Feb 21, 2015 at 11:47 PM, Jeff Garzik <jgarzik@bitpay.com>
> >> wrote:
> >> >> This isn't some theoretical exercise.  Like it or not many use
> >> >> insecure 0-conf transactions for rapid payments.  Deploying somet=
hing
> >> >> that makes 0-conf transactions unusable would have a wide, negati=
ve
> >> >> impact on present day bitcoin payments, thus "scorched earth"
> >>
> >> > And maybe by maintaining first seen policies we're harming the sys=
tem
> >> > in the long term by encouraging people to widely deploy systems ba=
sed
> >> > on extremely weak assumptions.
> >>
> >> Lacking a coded, reviewed alternative, that's only a platitude.
> >> Widely used 0-conf payments are where we're at today.  Simply ceasin=
g
> >> the "maintaining [of] first seen policies" alone is simply not a
> >> realistic option.  The negative impact to today's userbase would be
> >> huge.
> >>
> >> Instant payments need a security upgrade, yes.
> >>
> >> --
> >> Jeff Garzik
> >> Bitcoin core developer and open source evangelist
> >> BitPay, Inc.      https://bitpay.com/
> >>
> >>
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> >> _______________________________________________
> >> Bitcoin-development mailing list
> >> Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net
> >> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development
> >>
> >

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--=20
-------------------------------------------------------------------------=
---
Troy Benjegerdes                 'da hozer'                  hozer@hozed.=
org
7 elements      earth::water::air::fire::mind::spirit::soul        grid.c=
oop

      Never pick a fight with someone who buys ink by the barrel,
         nor try buy a hacker who makes money by the megahash