Return-Path: Received: from smtp1.linuxfoundation.org (smtp1.linux-foundation.org [172.17.192.35]) by mail.linuxfoundation.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D46E0CF4 for ; Mon, 11 Dec 2017 18:37:09 +0000 (UTC) X-Greylist: whitelisted by SQLgrey-1.7.6 Received: from mail-it0-f42.google.com (mail-it0-f42.google.com [209.85.214.42]) by smtp1.linuxfoundation.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 441C217E for ; Mon, 11 Dec 2017 18:37:08 +0000 (UTC) Received: by mail-it0-f42.google.com with SMTP id x28so18295769ita.0 for ; Mon, 11 Dec 2017 10:37:08 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=3UxWc4NckxG98udqnLWRQtPTfZm3pRMAqnAAX1Uu+v4=; b=PRB/OJNBWtzIiW0XlAEnz4ScBjmca1tfVyz3PTUBa5VB0fqf4CoGTck1Fn9DltZhsA O1tG4O+49U1WJ3tAchZHnWx0s9unnzOeVAOolhK4y6uPFzudVwUxC3Z69phLwAKAbrBF 8CjKmORMERuoNvuw/XtR2pPdQHueLaWEZSB4P06Hn0GTyMeMcvsXfFAaoRrfrwG8R4hk DFqlfXqft8TollCCA3D4CdfM3GRB5M1hzSvf1AVkAb8F3J3KUxgU5EGPqZcXfKQUfKsQ yfEfx504FXUOYxAKpcNDOLortF4bk32oO91quDJSDAaenUaXGgXwJlatKysJpp9IxJPK uLWw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to; bh=3UxWc4NckxG98udqnLWRQtPTfZm3pRMAqnAAX1Uu+v4=; b=AFOHCxkb8g0pXRy/DGp2cNJYT+k0oIiUBb0YpKf+nhdnJ25vFAIvu+MhnyjMpToCX9 DM76qqeLQUXLRVp8KvNyRkpOmDSW83T896JBR1jfEtnuql1F4HHMaHb7Y1F5Lz6Ysq3t 7KSryosaJ6fVDNLf6L/M97lEx9FqS6VrmXKLGOSwqje37NEfCER1A6wgtVYtZhmxJn9F xHbWbZmic4QmP77nY1+1pI6ekh3tJDnCWuPgJDO34FK6Bc8hvZFq6f1QpZThi5GRcEtj 8GsVMOxh3bVm8zwuyhlo2XK51jwlPpJ3F9g7EIMA+cjleAZLrh2TVZCye/8kaHcKYGBh jAog== X-Gm-Message-State: AKGB3mL2uKTxWzqWhVEGuud3H2ymV5tlEJo5cumnPjnGVXrOWVvlUgI1 DdW64hSeezkdKMdDORo5Z9c0GQ+WWVPr9I2vALE= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ACJfBoshFObZ4M7SivqrHruoqwUNvklyE9O08cx4CarzXQqqRiAQlSU7gALXLN05kqy++qFpSFbKy53hN76OJdfTdjo= X-Received: by 10.36.147.3 with SMTP id y3mr2527156itd.82.1513017427257; Mon, 11 Dec 2017 10:37:07 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.2.138.58 with HTTP; Mon, 11 Dec 2017 10:37:06 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.2.138.58 with HTTP; Mon, 11 Dec 2017 10:37:06 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: From: Ilan Oh Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2017 19:37:06 +0100 Message-ID: To: Bitcoin Protocol Discussion Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="94eb2c0897284a6e13056014d220" X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.0 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00,DKIM_SIGNED, DKIM_VALID, DKIM_VALID_AU, FREEMAIL_FROM, HTML_MESSAGE, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE autolearn=ham version=3.3.1 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.3.1 (2010-03-16) on smtp1.linux-foundation.org X-Mailman-Approved-At: Mon, 11 Dec 2017 18:41:37 +0000 Subject: Re: [bitcoin-dev] bitcoin-dev Digest, Vol 31, Issue 22 X-BeenThere: bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: Bitcoin Protocol Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2017 18:37:09 -0000 --94eb2c0897284a6e13056014d220 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Reply to dead man's switch, Since this topic as gone un-technical, People can already place a timer on transactions with the script to send funds if not moved for a given period, And people are responsible adults, trying to take ahead of every possible future human error from the protocol perspective looks more like french socialism than bitcoinism Le 11 d=C3=A9c. 2017 19:32, = a =C3=A9crit : Send bitcoin-dev mailing list submissions to bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to bitcoin-dev-request@lists.linuxfoundation.org You can reach the person managing the list at bitcoin-dev-owner@lists.linuxfoundation.org When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of bitcoin-dev digest..." Today's Topics: 1. Re: BIP - Dead Man's Switch (Radoslaw Biernacki) 2. Re: BIP - Dead Man's Switch (Pieter Wuille) 3. Re: BIP - Dead Man's Switch (Chris Riley) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Message: 1 Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2017 19:13:26 +0100 From: Radoslaw Biernacki To: Teweldemedhin Aberra , Bitcoin Protocol Discussion Subject: Re: [bitcoin-dev] BIP - Dead Man's Switch Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3D"utf-8" Aside from that such change would require a hard fork it also violates one of basic rules of bitcoin, which has long term consequences for miners and for whole Bitcoin economy. In short, after altering the supply limit it would not be "bitcoin" anymore. On Mon, Dec 11, 2017 at 6:30 PM, Teweldemedhin Aberra via bitcoin-dev < bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org> wrote: > It is estimated that about 4 million of the about 16.4 Bitcoins ever mine= d > are lost forever because no one knows the private keys of some Bitcoin > addresses. This effectively mean there are actually only 14.4 million > Bitcoins in circulation even though 16.4 million are mined. There is no way > of eliminating the human errors that cause these losses of Bitcoin from > circulation, while the number of Bitcoin that will ever be mined is cappe= d > at 21 million. This means the total number of Bitcoins that are in > circulation will eventually become zero, bringing the network to an end. > > The solution this BIP proposes is to implementing a dead man's switch to > Bitcoin addresses. The dead man's switch causes the Bitcoins assigned to > dormant addresses to automatically expire. A Bitcoin address is deemed > dormant if it is not used in transactions for some fixed length of time, > say ten years. > > The calculation of the miner's reward should take into account the > Bitcoins that has expired. This means there is a possibility that miner's > reward can increase if sufficient number of Bitcoins expire. > > Ref: > > http://fortune.com/2017/11/25/lost-bitcoins/ > > > > Virus-free. > www.avast.com > > <#m_-612306741899295358_DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2> > > _______________________________________________ > bitcoin-dev mailing list > bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org > https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: ------------------------------ Message: 2 Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2017 10:26:40 -0800 From: Pieter Wuille To: Nick Pudar , Bitcoin Dev Subject: Re: [bitcoin-dev] BIP - Dead Man's Switch Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3D"utf-8" On Dec 11, 2017 10:23, "Nick Pudar via bitcoin-dev" < bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org> wrote: This topic has come up several times in recent years. While it is well intentioned, it can have devastating outcomes for people that want to save long term. If such a system were implemented, it would force people to move funds around in order to not get nullified. In that process, it introduces multiple opportunities for errors. Cold storage should be able to stay cold. I personally would be apprehensive about implementing this kind of a system. Furthermore, if it rewards miners with funds that are expired, it creates terrible incentives. Miners in their best interest could choose to censor transactions that move funds close to their expiration time, to increase their own future rewards. Cheers, -- Pieter -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: ------------------------------ Message: 3 Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2017 13:28:03 -0500 From: Chris Riley To: Teweldemedhin Aberra , Bitcoin Protocol Discussion Subject: Re: [bitcoin-dev] BIP - Dead Man's Switch Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3D"utf-8" Hi, 1. If there are 16.4 million mined and 4 million are lost, that results in 12.4 million in circulation vs 14.4 million. 2. Satoshi addressed this as have numerous other people ( https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=3D198.msg1647#msg1647 ) - lost coin= s decrease supply, increasing value of the remaining coins. 3. This assumes this is a problem. Bitcoin is divisible, 100 million, potentially more if necessary. ( https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Help:FAQ#How_divisible_are_bitcoins.3F) 4. Why is it okay to steal bitcoins from people who's bitcoins have been "dormant" for a fixed period, 10 years in your example? 5. What happens to bitcoins that, say, Hal Finney still had (if any) and he put in cold storage while he is in ultimate cold storage ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hal_Finney_(computer_scientist)#Death) ? Ditto for someone, say, in a coma for 11 years, in jail for 11 years or any other similar event? Or a 20 year old sets aside coins for retirement. The following year, the system is changed, and when he looks again after not paying attention for a decade or two, they are gone. 6. This encourages censorship by miners for people attempting to move coins= . 7. This has been discussed many times before and everyone is welcome to fork bitcoin code and the block chain and convince people to follow this chain and code. Then you can see if you can get many people to agree that this is a good idea. On Mon, Dec 11, 2017 at 12:30 PM, Teweldemedhin Aberra via bitcoin-dev < bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org> wrote: > It is estimated that about 4 million of the about 16.4 Bitcoins ever mine= d > are lost forever because no one knows the private keys of some Bitcoin > addresses. This effectively mean there are actually only 14.4 million > Bitcoins in circulation even though 16.4 million are mined. There is no way > of eliminating the human errors that cause these losses of Bitcoin from > circulation, while the number of Bitcoin that will ever be mined is cappe= d > at 21 million. This means the total number of Bitcoins that are in > circulation will eventually become zero, bringing the network to an end. > > The solution this BIP proposes is to implementing a dead man's switch to > Bitcoin addresses. The dead man's switch causes the Bitcoins assigned to > dormant addresses to automatically expire. A Bitcoin address is deemed > dormant if it is not used in transactions for some fixed length of time, > say ten years. > > The calculation of the miner's reward should take into account the > Bitcoins that has expired. This means there is a possibility that miner's > reward can increase if sufficient number of Bitcoins expire. > > Ref: > > http://fortune.com/2017/11/25/lost-bitcoins/ > > > > Virus-free. > www.avast.com > > <#m_2495265241835744459_DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2> > > _______________________________________________ > bitcoin-dev mailing list > bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org > https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: ------------------------------ _______________________________________________ bitcoin-dev mailing list bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev End of bitcoin-dev Digest, Vol 31, Issue 22 ******************************************* --94eb2c0897284a6e13056014d220 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Reply to dead man's switch,

Since this topic as gone un-technical,

People can already place a timer on tran= sactions with the script to send funds if not moved for a given period,

And people are responsible = adults, trying to take ahead of every possible future human error from the = protocol perspective looks more like french socialism than bitcoinism=C2=A0=

= Le=C2=A011 d=C3=A9c. 2017 19:32, <bitcoin-dev-request@lists.linuxfoundation.org> a =C3=A9crit=C2=A0:
Send bitcoin-dev mailing list submissions to
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org

To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 https://li= sts.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev
or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 bitcoin-dev-request@lists.linuxfoundation.org
You can reach the person managing the list at
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 bitcoin-dev-owner@lists.linuxfoundation.org

When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
than "Re: Contents of bitcoin-dev digest..."


Today's Topics:

=C2=A0 =C2=A01. Re: BIP - Dead Man's Switch (Radoslaw Biernacki)
=C2=A0 =C2=A02. Re: BIP - Dead Man's Switch (Pieter Wuille)
=C2=A0 =C2=A03. Re: BIP - Dead Man's Switch (Chris Riley)


-----------------------------------------------------------------= -----

Message: 1
Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2017 19:13:26 +0100
From: Radoslaw Biernacki <radoslaw.biernacki@gmail.com>
To: Teweldemedhin Aberra <teweld= emat@gmail.com>,=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Bitcoin Protocol
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Discussion <bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org>=
Subject: Re: [bitcoin-dev] BIP - Dead Man's Switch
Message-ID:
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 <CADp3C4vfL8yE4C8T5nU_qpOO= LkDP+eMwM_pXmbdB0Nj0vbJHUg@mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3D"utf-8"

Aside from that such change would require a hard fork it also violates one<= br> of basic rules of bitcoin, which has long term consequences for miners and<= br> for whole Bitcoin economy. In short, after altering the supply limit it
would not be "bitcoin" anymore.

On Mon, Dec 11, 2017 at 6:30 PM, Teweldemedhin Aberra via bitcoin-dev <<= br> bitcoin-dev@lists.= linuxfoundation.org> wrote:

> It is estimated that about 4 million of the about 16.4 Bitcoins ever m= ined
> are lost forever because no one knows the private keys of some Bitcoin=
> addresses. This effectively mean there are actually only 14.4 million<= br> > Bitcoins in circulation even though 16.4 million are mined. There is n= o way
> of eliminating the human errors that cause these losses of Bitcoin fro= m
> circulation, while the number of Bitcoin that will ever be mined is ca= pped
> at 21 million. This means the total number of Bitcoins that are in
> circulation will eventually become zero, bringing the network to an en= d.
>
> The solution this BIP proposes is to implementing a dead man's swi= tch to
> Bitcoin addresses. The dead man's switch causes the Bitcoins assig= ned to
> dormant addresses to automatically expire. A Bitcoin address is deemed=
> dormant if it is not used in transactions for some fixed length of tim= e,
> say ten years.
>
> The calculation of the miner's reward should take into account the=
> Bitcoins that has expired. This means there is a possibility that mine= r's
> reward can increase if sufficient number of Bitcoins expire.
>
> Ref:
>
> http://fortune.com/2017/11/25/lost-bitcoins/
>
>
>
> <https://www.avast.c= om/sig-email?utm_medium=3Demail&utm_source=3Dlink&utm_cam= paign=3Dsig-email&utm_content=3Dwebmail&utm_term=3Dicon> Virus-free.
> = www.avast.com
> <https://www.avast.c= om/sig-email?utm_medium=3Demail&utm_source=3Dlink&utm_cam= paign=3Dsig-email&utm_content=3Dwebmail&utm_term=3Dlink>
> <#m_-612306741899295358_DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9F= DF2>
>
> _______________________________________________
> bitcoin-dev mailing list
> bitcoin-dev@l= ists.linuxfoundation.org
> https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev
>
>
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------------------------------

Message: 2
Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2017 10:26:40 -0800
From: Pieter Wuille <pieter.w= uille@gmail.com>
To: Nick Pudar <nick@pudar.com>= ,=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Bitcoin Dev
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 <bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org>
Subject: Re: [bitcoin-dev] BIP - Dead Man's Switch
Message-ID:
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 <CAPg+sBi9nYHCcN8ct=3D_iqWuxDFU1cPwBfbfF8WPX-w= +kf6hzfQ@mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3D"utf-8"

On Dec 11, 2017 10:23, "Nick Pudar via bitcoin-dev" <
bitcoin-dev@lists.= linuxfoundation.org> wrote:

This topic has come up several times in recent years. While it is well
intentioned, it can have devastating outcomes for people that want to save<= br> long term. If such a system were implemented, it would force people to move=
funds around in order to not get nullified. In that process, it introduces<= br> multiple opportunities for errors. Cold storage should be able to stay
cold. I personally would be apprehensive about implementing this kind of a<= br> system.


Furthermore, if it rewards miners with funds that are expired, it creates terrible incentives. Miners in their best interest could choose to censor transactions that move funds close to their expiration time, to increase their own future rewards.

Cheers,

--
Pieter
-------------- next part --------------
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------------------------------

Message: 3
Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2017 13:28:03 -0500
From: Chris Riley <criley@gmail.com<= /a>>
To: Teweldemedhin Aberra <teweld= emat@gmail.com>,=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Bitcoin Protocol
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Discussion <bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org>=
Subject: Re: [bitcoin-dev] BIP - Dead Man's Switch
Message-ID:
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 <CAL5BAw1ayaiD07PJ4MRqcKaXdet5KW131en69vbw5gebWTF8nA@mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3D"utf-8"

Hi,
1. If there are 16.4 million mined and 4 million are lost, that results in<= br> 12.4 million in circulation vs 14.4 million.
2. Satoshi addressed this as have numerous other people (
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?= topic=3D198.msg1647#msg1647 ) - lost coins
decrease supply, increasing value of the remaining coins.
3. This assumes this is a problem.=C2=A0 Bitcoin is divisible, 100 million,=
potentially more if necessary. (
https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Hel= p:FAQ#How_divisible_are_bitcoins.3F)
4. Why is it okay to steal bitcoins from people who's bitcoins have bee= n
"dormant" for a fixed period, 10 years in your example?
5. What happens to bitcoins that, say, Hal Finney still had (if any) and he=
put in cold storage while he is in ultimate cold storage (
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hal_Finney_(computer_scientist)#Death) ?
Ditto for someone, say, in a coma for 11 years, in jail for 11 years or any=
other similar event?=C2=A0 Or a 20 year old sets aside coins for retirement= .
The following year, the system is changed, and when he looks again after not paying attention for a decade or two, they are gone.
6. This encourages censorship by miners for people attempting to move coins= .
7. This has been discussed many times before and everyone is welcome to
fork bitcoin code and the block chain and convince people to follow this chain and code.=C2=A0 Then you can see if you can get many people to agree = that
this is a good idea.








On Mon, Dec 11, 2017 at 12:30 PM, Teweldemedhin Aberra via bitcoin-dev <=
bitcoin-dev@lists.= linuxfoundation.org> wrote:

> It is estimated that about 4 million of the about 16.4 Bitcoins ever m= ined
> are lost forever because no one knows the private keys of some Bitcoin=
> addresses. This effectively mean there are actually only 14.4 million<= br> > Bitcoins in circulation even though 16.4 million are mined. There is n= o way
> of eliminating the human errors that cause these losses of Bitcoin fro= m
> circulation, while the number of Bitcoin that will ever be mined is ca= pped
> at 21 million. This means the total number of Bitcoins that are in
> circulation will eventually become zero, bringing the network to an en= d.
>
> The solution this BIP proposes is to implementing a dead man's swi= tch to
> Bitcoin addresses. The dead man's switch causes the Bitcoins assig= ned to
> dormant addresses to automatically expire. A Bitcoin address is deemed=
> dormant if it is not used in transactions for some fixed length of tim= e,
> say ten years.
>
> The calculation of the miner's reward should take into account the=
> Bitcoins that has expired. This means there is a possibility that mine= r's
> reward can increase if sufficient number of Bitcoins expire.
>
> Ref:
>
> http://fortune.com/2017/11/25/lost-bitcoins/
>
>
>
> <https://www.avast.c= om/sig-email?utm_medium=3Demail&utm_source=3Dlink&utm_cam= paign=3Dsig-email&utm_content=3Dwebmail&utm_term=3Dicon> Virus-free.
> = www.avast.com
> <https://www.avast.c= om/sig-email?utm_medium=3Demail&utm_source=3Dlink&utm_cam= paign=3Dsig-email&utm_content=3Dwebmail&utm_term=3Dlink>
> <#m_2495265241835744459_DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9F= DF2>
>
> _______________________________________________
> bitcoin-dev mailing list
> bitcoin-dev@l= ists.linuxfoundation.org
> https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev
>
>
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------------------------------

_______________________________________________
bitcoin-dev mailing list
bitcoin-dev@lists.= linuxfoundation.org
https://lists.linuxfoundation.org= /mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev


End of bitcoin-dev Digest, Vol 31, Issue 22
*******************************************

--94eb2c0897284a6e13056014d220--