Date: Mon, 7 Apr 2014 15:08:39 -0500
From: Troy Benjegerdes <hozer@hozed.org>
To: Gavin Andresen <gavinandresen@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20140407200838.GR3180@nl.grid.coop>
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Cc: Bitcoin Dev <bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net>
Subject: Re: [Bitcoin-development] Draft BIP for seamless website
 authentication using Bitcoin address
Precedence: list

I have to play dissenter here again..

Using a bitcoin address as a persistent identity key is the first real-wo=
rld
use of Bitcoin that I can imagine will make it a 'killer app' that everyo=
ne
and their grandma will want to use.

If you think 'certificates' are a good solution, then there is some way i=
n
which we have dramatically divergent goals.

I like distributed, decentralized systems in which anyone can download th=
e=20
code and be free to participate in the things they want to securely and=20
reliably.

As soon as I hear 'certificate', I see a system in which one must pay at =
toll
to speak, and which puts the listeners at risk because a certificate issu=
er
is such a high-value target for malicious attack.

Self-signed certificates are great for techno-wizards, but grandma has no
idea if the self-signed cert was signed by her grandson, or by the hacker
trying to redirect her social security check.

"This is your bitcoin address, it's your money AND your key to log into=20
your bank website securely, so don't lose it. If you want our address
protection insurance service that will be $20 per month, and if you do lo=
se
it, we'll fix it. If you keep losing it, then your rates will go up, just=20
like car insurance if you keep crashing"


On Fri, Apr 04, 2014 at 09:32:40AM -0400, Gavin Andresen wrote:
> Using a bitcoin address repeatedly is something we're trying to move aw=
ay
> from.
>=20
> And using a bitcoin address as a persistent identity key feels like the
> wrong direction to me.
>=20
> Better to use something like client certificates, the FIDO alliance's
> (new!) specs:
>   http://fidoalliance.org/specifications/download
>=20
> ... or Steve Gibson's proposed SQRL system:
>   https://www.grc.com/sqrl/sqrl.htm
>=20
> If one of those systems gets critical mass and actually starts being
> successful, then I think it would make sense to specify a standard way =
of
> using a HD wallet's deterministic seed to derive a key used for the FID=
O or
> SQRL systems.
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
> On Fri, Apr 4, 2014 at 9:22 AM, Eric Larchev=EAque <elarch@gmail.com> w=
rote:
>=20
> > What I'm trying to achieve, is to have a very simple way of authentic=
ating
> > yourself with one Bitcoin address from your wallet.
> > For most of the people using Bitcoin, their wallet is on their phone.
> >
> > The UX is clear and simple :
> > 1. click on "connect with Bitcoin" (the audience is normal people)
> > 2. flash the QRcode with your wallet (blockchain.info, mycelium, ...)
> > 3. accept the authentication request (same style than OpenID or Faceb=
ook
> > connect)
> > 4. user is autologged and identified by the chosen Bitcoin public add=
ress
> >
> > It makes sense only if major wallets are supporting the protocol. If =
you
> > need to install a plugin or download a third party software, no one w=
ill do
> > it.
> > I see only benefits for the entire ecosystem, and if I'm working on s=
uch a
> > proposition it is because I really need this feature.
> >
> > Of course, it can be done without a BIP, I just need to convince wall=
et
> > developpers one by one to implement the feature.
> > But I thought it was much better to start the "official" way, so all
> > wallet could easily find and implement the same authentication mechan=
ism.
> >
> > >  Bitcoin and website authentication are unrelated problems
> >
> > I respectfully disagree. Many services require your Bitcoin address, =
and
> > to do that they artificially request an email/password to store it.
> > This is not about authentication as an identity (as "I'm Eric
> > Larcheveque"), but as in "I'm proving to you that I control this addr=
ess".
> >
> > Without such a standard protocol, you could never envision a pure Bit=
coin
> > physical locker rental, or booking an hotel room via Bitcoin and open=
ing
> > the door through the paying address.
> >
> > Eric
> >
> >
> >
> > On Fri, Apr 4, 2014 at 3:08 PM, Mike Hearn <mike@plan99.net> wrote:
> >
> >> This comes up every few months. I think the problem you are trying t=
o
> >> solve is already solved by SSL client certificates, and if you want =
to help
> >> make them more widespread the programs you need to upgrade are web b=
rowsers
> >> and not Bitcoin wallets. There are certainly bits of infrastructure =
you
> >> could reuse here and there, like perhaps a TREZOR with a custom firm=
ware
> >> extension for really advanced/keen users, but overall Bitcoin and we=
bsite
> >> authentication are unrelated problems.
> >>
> >>
> >> On Fri, Apr 4, 2014 at 2:15 PM, Eric Larchev=EAque <elarch@gmail.com=
>wrote:
> >>
> >>> Hello,
> >>>
> >>> I've written a draft BIP description of an authentication protocol =
based
> >>> on Bitcoin public address.
> >>>
> >>> By authentication we mean to prove to a service/application that we
> >>> control a specific Bitcoin address by signing a challenge, and that =
all
> >>> related data and settings may securely be linked to our session.
> >>>
> >>> The aim is to greatly facilitate sign ups and logins to services an=
d
> >>> applications, improving the Bitcoin ecosystem as a whole.
> >>>
> >>> https://github.com/bitid/bitid/blob/master/BIP_draft.md
> >>>
> >>> Demo website :
> >>> http://bitid-demo.herokuapp.com/
> >>>
> >>> Classical password authentication is an insecure process that could =
be
> >>> solved with public key cryptography. The problem is that it theoret=
ically
> >>> offloads a lot of complexity and responsibility on the user. Managi=
ng
> >>> private keys securely is complex. However this complexity is alread=
y being
> >>> addressed in the Bitcoin ecosystem. So doing public key authenticat=
ion is
> >>> practically a free lunch to bitcoiners.
> >>>
> >>> I've formatted the protocol description as a BIP because this is th=
e
> >>> only way to have all major wallets implementing it, and because it
> >>> completely fits in my opinion the BIP "process" category.
> >>>
> >>> Please read it and let me know your thoughts and comments so we can
> >>> improve on this draft.
> >>>
> >>> Eric Larcheveque
> >>> elarch@gmail.com
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> -------------------------------------------------------------------=
-----------
> >>>
> >>> _______________________________________________
> >>> Bitcoin-development mailing list
> >>> Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net
> >>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development
> >>>
> >>>
> >>
> >
> >
> > ---------------------------------------------------------------------=
---------
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Bitcoin-development mailing list
> > Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net
> > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development
> >
> >
>=20
>=20
> --=20
> --
> Gavin Andresen

> -----------------------------------------------------------------------=
-------

> _______________________________________________
> Bitcoin-development mailing list
> Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development


--=20
-------------------------------------------------------------------------=
---
Troy Benjegerdes                 'da hozer'                  hozer@hozed.=
org
7 elements      earth::water::air::fire::mind::spirit::soul        grid.c=
oop

      Never pick a fight with someone who buys ink by the barrel,
         nor try buy a hacker who makes money by the megahash