Return-Path: Received: from smtp1.linuxfoundation.org (smtp1.linux-foundation.org [172.17.192.35]) by mail.linuxfoundation.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 247D76C for ; Tue, 3 Jan 2017 22:18:34 +0000 (UTC) X-Greylist: whitelisted by SQLgrey-1.7.6 Received: from mail-qk0-f172.google.com (mail-qk0-f172.google.com [209.85.220.172]) by smtp1.linuxfoundation.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 618531B4 for ; Tue, 3 Jan 2017 22:18:33 +0000 (UTC) Received: by mail-qk0-f172.google.com with SMTP id h201so250188943qke.1 for ; Tue, 03 Jan 2017 14:18:33 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=RxxFojpz+iwPZ7LZ+lzktXY59eBkRdkzapFJ+XEdQQ0=; b=F1vHn+QLrWN/CJtWNmGpZUx1Jqb8aX+b4IwdUfaTD9C2u3k/XesSid2whte4B0a8/Z FxvS/60/0l9g5EvUsZpYDrU1tGUtzXY4et4yLygNIydTFNmFWpxJqZkZiap+nHl7xvab wRDi/80pAxTe27amkKmJANuhw19mPDRr60rybGYMSId7qtCVqHlnsPAWWmNdzE2tmqXm 7qK4yZbhGbE55EOqmDzAprorh5rq6hq/NmazGZZMsRWDu8ECdgmrRpH9z41sNbOcGESz iRSkC2txq6L0YlJQcLrP5qrgBTrcFBENmKMxLzG+KvVB8qnjNCaQYYMXidZz9jzgGMvJ JjAg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to; bh=RxxFojpz+iwPZ7LZ+lzktXY59eBkRdkzapFJ+XEdQQ0=; b=rVjOt7NaXslAW87sJs6nSc+uXWdq408kFWsYWwyxOLKNCGxga8tPg39SQ6+cXNqLs3 QVuoUhHxRatKOiV/SOgAr3x3eJ6tYRADJuef2xBjilHA+gVrRIHJsVgzI7sXA4H6d5/2 moG6EFTiabISRLen9nL3LlzEQCD8rJ7jE7sVuT4j8VYFXroXEHGxwTr3dnrnjP8ya/kT r2pRFTRhH43OI2LArzOAi313SPtFsJQvRoUXQzXcgmR3fqKiOAEi7gGI5twHeZblz6ER CKQoHDqr0gXEu14mGMzQfr6aiULnVD212eIu1mYij2vMuGq8heuCdyovrGiTrxUM+A+g 740g== X-Gm-Message-State: AIkVDXL4HDzS4eFaeCKVGySlpp/XjtRdHDdOxFtMqcMIQ3vlhqvRaQKbx7EImshYSZ+YmyAY1/FpE3AavZcS8A== X-Received: by 10.55.44.193 with SMTP id s184mr68561262qkh.278.1483481912511; Tue, 03 Jan 2017 14:18:32 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <71d822e413ac457a530e1c367811cc24@cock.lu> <77b6dd25-0603-a0bd-6a9e-38098e5cb19d@jonasschnelli.ch> <74aeb4760316b59a3db56c0d16d11f28@cock.lu> In-Reply-To: <74aeb4760316b59a3db56c0d16d11f28@cock.lu> From: Aaron Voisine Date: Tue, 03 Jan 2017 22:18:21 +0000 Message-ID: To: Bitcoin Protocol Discussion , Jonas Schnelli , bfd@cock.lu Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a114f4d9a6d128e0545380ccb X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.2 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00,DKIM_SIGNED, DKIM_VALID, DKIM_VALID_AU, FREEMAIL_FROM, HTML_MESSAGE, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW, RCVD_IN_SORBS_SPAM autolearn=ham version=3.3.1 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.3.1 (2010-03-16) on smtp1.linux-foundation.org Subject: Re: [bitcoin-dev] Committed bloom filters for improved wallet performance and SPV security X-BeenThere: bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: Bitcoin Protocol Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 03 Jan 2017 22:18:34 -0000 --001a114f4d9a6d128e0545380ccb Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Unconfirmed transactions are incredibly important for real world use. Merchants for instance are willing to accept credit card payments of thousands of dollars and ship the goods despite the fact that the transaction can be reversed up to 60 days later. There is a very large cost to losing the ability to have instant transactions in many or even most situations. This cost is typically well above the fraud risk. It's important to recognize that bitcoin serves a wide variety of use cases with different profiles for time sensitivity and fraud risk. Aaron On Tue, Jan 3, 2017 at 12:41 PM bfd--- via bitcoin-dev < bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org> wrote: > The concept combined with the weak blocks system where miners commit > > to potential transaction inclusion with fractional difficulty blocks > > is possible. I'm not personally convinced that unconfirmed transaction > > display in a wallet is worth the privacy trade-off. The user has very > > little to gain from this knowledge until the txn is in a block. > > > > > > On 2017-01-01 13:01, Jonas Schnelli via bitcoin-dev wrote: > > > Hi > > >> We introduce several concepts that rework the lightweight Bitcoin > > >> client model in a manner which is secure, efficient and privacy > > >> compatible. > > >> > > >> The BFD can be used verbatim in replacement of BIP37, where the filter > > >> can be cached between clients without needing to be recomputed. It can > > >> also be used by normal pruned nodes to do re-scans locally of their > > >> wallet without needing to have the block data available to scan, or > > >> without reading the entire block chain from disk. > > > I started exploring the potential of BFD after this specification. > > > > > > What would be the preferred/recommended way to handle 0-conf/mempool > > > filtering =E2=80=93 if & once BDF would have been deployed (any type, > > > semi-trusted oracles or protocol-level/softfork)? > > > > > > From the user-experience perspective, this is probably pretty important > > > (otherwise the experience will be that incoming funds can take serval > > > minutes to hours until they appear). > > > Using BIP37 bloom filters just for mempool filtering would obviously > > > result in the same unwanted privacy-setup. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > bitcoin-dev mailing list > > > bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org > > > https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev > > _______________________________________________ > > bitcoin-dev mailing list > > bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org > > https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev > > --001a114f4d9a6d128e0545380ccb Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Unconfirmed transactions are incredibly important for real world use. = Merchants for instance are willing to accept credit card payments of thousa= nds of dollars and ship the goods despite the fact that the transaction can= be reversed up to 60 days later. There is a very large cost to losing the = ability to have instant transactions in many or even most situations. This = cost is typically well above the fraud risk.=C2=A0

It's important to recognize that bitcoin serves a wide variety of use = cases with different profiles for time sensitivity and fraud risk.
Aaron

On Tue= , Jan 3, 2017 at 12:41 PM bfd--- via bitcoin-dev <bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org> wrote:
The concept combined w= ith the weak blocks system where miners commit

t= o potential transaction inclusion with fractional difficulty blocks

is possible. I'm not personally convinced that unco= nfirmed transaction

display in a wallet is worth= the privacy trade-off. The user has very

little= to gain from this knowledge until the txn is in a block.





On 2017-0= 1-01 13:01, Jonas Schnelli via bitcoin-dev wrote:
> Hi

>> We introduce several concepts= that rework the lightweight Bitcoin

>> cl= ient model in a manner which is secure, efficient and privacy

>> compatible.

>>

>> The BFD can be used verbatim in replacement= of BIP37, where the filter

>> can be cach= ed between clients without needing to be recomputed. It can

>> also be used by normal pruned nodes to do re-scans loc= ally of their

>> wallet without needing to= have the block data available to scan, or

>&= gt; without reading the entire block chain from disk.

> I started exploring the potential of BFD after this specificatio= n.

>

> What wou= ld be the preferred/recommended way to handle 0-conf/mempool

> filtering =E2=80=93 if & once BDF would have been dep= loyed (any type,

> semi-trusted oracles or pr= otocol-level/softfork)?

>

> From the user-experience perspective, this is probably pretty = important

> (otherwise the experience will be= that incoming funds can take serval

> minute= s to hours until they appear).

> Using BIP37 = bloom filters just for mempool filtering would obviously

> result in the same unwanted privacy-setup.

>

> </jonas>

>

>
> _______________________________________________

> bitcoin-dev mailing list

> bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org

> https= ://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev

_______________________________________________

bitcoin-dev mailing list

bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org

https://lis= ts.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev

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