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Date: Fri, 28 Mar 2014 12:46:53 +0100
Message-ID: <CANEZrP30UsWsBJ-pzb=LQP-MB+PDE0buRdRbuUiOJxANLF9cpw@mail.gmail.com>
From: Mike Hearn <mike@plan99.net>
To: Tamas Blummer <tamas@bitsofproof.com>
Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a1134aa020c4d2204f5a9422c
Cc: Bitcoin Dev <bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net>,
	Andreas Schildbach <andreas@schildbach.de>
Subject: Re: [Bitcoin-development] BIP 70 refund field
Precedence: list

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I don't want to manage a "business relationship" with every shop I buy
something from. That's way too much effort. There can certainly be cases
where a more complicated relationship is created by bootstrapping off
BIP70, perhaps with an extension, but nailing the ordinary buyer-to-seller
relationship seems like a good scope for BIP70 for now.


On Fri, Mar 28, 2014 at 12:45 PM, Tamas Blummer <tamas@bitsofproof.com>wrote:

> Yes, you begin to see that the payment protocol, as is has a too narrow
> scope of a web cart - customer, and does not even fit that.
>
> It is not about payment requests but about business relationships. We need
> a protocol that deals with that concept instead of individual requests,
> so we really get out of the hell of addresses. Business relationships are
> terminated by the parties at their own and not bey algorithms and timeouts.
>
> Regards,
>
> Tamas Blummer
> http://bitsofproof.com
>
> On 28.03.2014, at 12:38, Wladimir <laanwj@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
> On Fri, Mar 28, 2014 at 12:25 PM, Andreas Schildbach <
> andreas@schildbach.de> wrote:
>
>> I see the problem.
>>
>> However, I don't see how PaymentDetails can be an answer. None of the
>> fields (other than outputs and network) can be known in advance (at the
>> time of the initial payment).
>>
>> You're probably aiming for an expires field? How would you refund a
>> payment after expiry? Note its not your choice wether to refund a
>> payment -- it can be ordered by a court years after the payment happened.
>>
>
> Communication between the merchant and buyer would be needed in this case.
>
> I'd say that would be not unreasonable if something is to be refunded
> after a year or more. After all, people may have moved, bank accounts
> changed, even outside the bitcoin world.
>
> It should probably not be accepted to set a very low expiration time for
> the refund address, like <3 months, as it's as bad as not providing a
> refund address at all and brings back all the pre-BIP70 confusion.
>
> Wladimir
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> _______________________________________________
> Bitcoin-development mailing list
> Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
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>
>

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Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"ltr">I don&#39;t want to manage a &quot;business relationship&q=
uot; with every shop I buy something from. That&#39;s way too much effort. =
There can certainly be cases where a more complicated relationship is creat=
ed by bootstrapping off BIP70, perhaps with an extension, but nailing the o=
rdinary buyer-to-seller relationship seems like a good scope for BIP70 for =
now.<br>
<div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Fri, Mar 2=
8, 2014 at 12:45 PM, Tamas Blummer <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:=
tamas@bitsofproof.com" target=3D"_blank">tamas@bitsofproof.com</a>&gt;</spa=
n> wrote:<br>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1p=
x #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div style=3D"word-wrap:break-word"><div>Yes=
, you begin to see that the payment protocol, as is has a too narrow scope =
of a web cart - customer, and does not even fit that.</div>
<div><br></div><div>It is not about payment requests but about business rel=
ationships. We need a protocol that deals with that concept instead of indi=
vidual requests,</div><div>so we really get out of the hell of addresses. B=
usiness relationships are terminated by the parties at their own and not be=
y algorithms and timeouts.</div>
<div><br style=3D"text-indent:0px;letter-spacing:normal;font-variant:normal=
;text-align:-webkit-auto;font-style:normal;font-weight:normal;line-height:n=
ormal;text-transform:none;font-size:medium;white-space:normal;font-family:H=
elvetica;word-spacing:0px">
<span style=3D"text-indent:0px;letter-spacing:normal;font-variant:normal;te=
xt-align:-webkit-auto;font-style:normal;display:inline!important;font-weigh=
t:normal;float:none;line-height:normal;text-transform:none;font-size:medium=
;white-space:normal;font-family:Helvetica;word-spacing:0px">Regards,</span>=
<br style=3D"text-indent:0px;letter-spacing:normal;font-variant:normal;text=
-align:-webkit-auto;font-style:normal;font-weight:normal;line-height:normal=
;text-transform:none;font-size:medium;white-space:normal;font-family:Helvet=
ica;word-spacing:0px">
<br style=3D"text-indent:0px;letter-spacing:normal;font-variant:normal;text=
-align:-webkit-auto;font-style:normal;font-weight:normal;line-height:normal=
;text-transform:none;font-size:medium;white-space:normal;font-family:Helvet=
ica;word-spacing:0px">
<span style=3D"text-indent:0px;letter-spacing:normal;font-variant:normal;te=
xt-align:-webkit-auto;font-style:normal;display:inline!important;font-weigh=
t:normal;float:none;line-height:normal;text-transform:none;font-size:medium=
;white-space:normal;font-family:Helvetica;word-spacing:0px">Tamas Blummer</=
span><br style=3D"text-indent:0px;letter-spacing:normal;font-variant:normal=
;text-align:-webkit-auto;font-style:normal;font-weight:normal;line-height:n=
ormal;text-transform:none;font-size:medium;white-space:normal;font-family:H=
elvetica;word-spacing:0px">
<span style=3D"text-indent:0px;letter-spacing:normal;font-variant:normal;te=
xt-align:-webkit-auto;font-style:normal;display:inline!important;font-weigh=
t:normal;float:none;line-height:normal;text-transform:none;font-size:medium=
;white-space:normal;font-family:Helvetica;word-spacing:0px"><a href=3D"http=
://bitsofproof.com" target=3D"_blank">http://bitsofproof.com</a></span>
</div>
<br><div><div><div class=3D"h5"><div>On 28.03.2014, at 12:38, Wladimir &lt;=
<a href=3D"mailto:laanwj@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">laanwj@gmail.com</a>&=
gt; wrote:</div><br></div></div><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div><div class=
=3D"h5">
<div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">=
On Fri, Mar 28, 2014 at 12:25 PM, Andreas Schildbach <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;=
<a href=3D"mailto:andreas@schildbach.de" target=3D"_blank">andreas@schildba=
ch.de</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br>

<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1p=
x #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">I see the problem.<br>
<br>
However, I don&#39;t see how PaymentDetails can be an answer. None of the<b=
r>
fields (other than outputs and network) can be known in advance (at the<br>
time of the initial payment).<br>
<br>
You&#39;re probably aiming for an expires field? How would you refund a<br>
payment after expiry? Note its not your choice wether to refund a<br>
payment -- it can be ordered by a court years after the payment happened.<b=
r></blockquote><div><br></div><div>Communication between the merchant and b=
uyer would be needed in this case.<br><br></div><div>I&#39;d say that would=
 be not unreasonable if something is to be refunded after a year or more. A=
fter all, people may have moved, bank accounts changed, even outside the bi=
tcoin world.<br>

<br></div><div>It should probably not be accepted to set a very low expirat=
ion time for the refund address, like &lt;3 months, as it&#39;s as bad as n=
ot providing a refund address at all and brings back all the pre-BIP70 conf=
usion.<br>

</div><div></div><div><br></div><div>Wladimir<br></div></div><br></div></di=
v></div></div><div class=3D"">
---------------------------------------------------------------------------=
---<br>_______________________________________________<br>Bitcoin-developme=
nt mailing list<br><a href=3D"mailto:Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.=
net" target=3D"_blank">Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development=
" target=3D"_blank">https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-de=
velopment</a><br></div></blockquote></div><br></div><br>-------------------=
-----------------------------------------------------------<br>

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Bitcoin-development mailing list<br>
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pment@lists.sourceforge.net</a><br>
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velopment</a><br>
<br></blockquote></div><br></div></div>

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