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From: yes_please <caucasianjazz12@gmail.com>
Date: Thu, 25 Sep 2025 11:21:32 +0200
Message-ID: <CAPDT2SRyVY4rh=HegG+kk5nnDf6qzYuRkUyxCC8iE-ydsh63ew@mail.gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [bitcoindev] [BIP Proposal] Mempool Validation and Relay Policies
 via User-Defined Scripts
To: Greg Maxwell <gmaxwell@gmail.com>
Cc: Aiden McClelland <me@drbonez.dev>, 
	Bitcoin Development Mailing List <bitcoindev@googlegroups.com>
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Sorry Greg, could you please elaborate further on your ideas? Some are not
exactly clear:

1) Allowing node runners to configure their node as they please and refuse
to relay some txs is considered authoritarian, censorship, and an attempt
to regulate third parties conduct. On the other hand, forcing nodes to
merge towards a single shared configuration (by preventing them to block
txs) is not considered authoritarian because this imposition does not
discriminate towards any txs and is thus non-authoritarian? Did I get the
reasoning correctly here?

2) If the aim is to have a homogenous mempool state and to model what will
get mined, shouldn=E2=80=99t we reach this state through distributed indepe=
ndent
nodes who decide independently on what they prefer this homogenous state to
be? If we don=E2=80=99t reach this state through this distributed/independe=
nt
mechanism, then how are we to reach this state? Who gets to decide and
steer the direction so that we all converge towards this homogenous state?
One of the strongest aspects of bitcoin is the fact that no single party
can force a change/direction, and the network has to somehow reach a shared
agreement through independent decision makers who act in what manner they
think is best. The proposed BIP seems to be aligned with such a principle,
I fail to see any authoritarian aspect here.

3) I share your sentiment and the aim to have a homogenous mempool state,
but I am skeptical of the manner in which we are to achieve this according
to the ideas you have here expressed (namely not through a distributed
independent organic manner)


Respectfully, yes_please

On Thu, Sep 25, 2025 at 12:50=E2=80=AFAM Greg Maxwell <gmaxwell@gmail.com> =
wrote:

> So that when the "consistent state" changes as a result of some issue you
> can update configs instead of having to update software-- which has
> considerable more costs and risks, especially if you're carrying local
> customizations as many miners do.
>
>
> On Wed, Sep 24, 2025 at 8:47=E2=80=AFPM Aiden McClelland <me@drbonez.dev>=
 wrote:
>
>> If mempool consistency across the network is all that is important, why
>> allow any configuration of mempool relay policies at all?
>>
>> On Wednesday, September 24, 2025 at 12:47:28=E2=80=AFPM UTC-6 Greg Maxwe=
ll wrote:
>>
>>> This appears to substantially misunderstands the purpose of the mempool
>>> broadly in the network-- it's purpose is to model what will get mined. =
 If
>>> you're not doing that you might as well set blocks only.
>>> Significant discrepancies are harmful to the system and promote
>>> centralization and fail to achieve a useful purpose in any case.  What
>>> marginal benefits might be provided do not justify building and deployi=
ng
>>> the technological infrastructure for massive censorship.
>>>
>>> If you think this is important, I advise you to select another
>>> cryptocurrency which is compatible with such authoritarian leanings.  -=
-
>>> though I am unsure if any exist since it is such a transparently pointl=
ess
>>> direction.
>>>
>>>
>>> On Wed, Sep 24, 2025 at 6:30=E2=80=AFPM Aiden McClelland <m...@drbonez.=
dev>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Hi all,
>>>>
>>>> I'd like to share for discussion a draft BIP to allow for a modular
>>>> mempool/relay policy: https://github.com/bitcoin/bips/pull/1985
>>>>
>>>> I think it could potentially reduce conflict within the community
>>>> around relay policy, as an alternative to running lots of different no=
de
>>>> implementations/forks when there are disagreements.
>>>>
>>>> I am working on a reference implementation using Bellard's QuickJS, bu=
t
>>>> it has been almost a decade since I've written C++, so it's slow going=
 and
>>>> I'm sure doesn't follow best-practices. Once it's working, it can be
>>>> cleaned up.
>>>>
>>>> Thanks,
>>>> Aiden McClelland
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
>>>> Groups "Bitcoin Development Mailing List" group.
>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send
>>>> an email to bitcoindev+...@googlegroups.com.
>>>> To view this discussion visit
>>>> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/bitcoindev/cbdab6fa-93bc-44c9-80f0-6=
c68c6554f56n%40googlegroups.com
>>>> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/bitcoindev/cbdab6fa-93bc-44c9-80f0-=
6c68c6554f56n%40googlegroups.com?utm_medium=3Demail&utm_source=3Dfooter>
>>>> .
>>>>
>>> --
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>> email to bitcoindev+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
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664babbfcn%40googlegroups.com
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8664babbfcn%40googlegroups.com?utm_medium=3Demail&utm_source=3Dfooter>
>> .
>>
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ooter>
> .
>

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<div dir=3D"ltr"><p style=3D"color:rgba(232,230,227,0.87);font-family:Robot=
o,RobotoDraft,Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif;font-size:14px"><span lang=3D"EN-U=
S">Sorry Greg, could you please elaborate further on your ideas? Some are n=
ot exactly clear:</span></p><p style=3D"color:rgba(232,230,227,0.87);font-f=
amily:Roboto,RobotoDraft,Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif;font-size:14px"><span l=
ang=3D"EN-US">1)=C2=A0</span><span lang=3D"EN-US">Allowing node runners to =
configure their node as they please and refuse to relay some txs is conside=
red authoritarian, censorship, and an attempt to regulate third parties con=
duct. On the other hand, forcing nodes to merge towards a single shared con=
figuration (by preventing them to block txs) is not considered authoritaria=
n because this imposition does not discriminate towards any txs and is thus=
 non-authoritarian? Did I get the reasoning correctly here?</span></p><p st=
yle=3D"color:rgba(232,230,227,0.87);font-family:Roboto,RobotoDraft,Helvetic=
a,Arial,sans-serif;font-size:14px"><span lang=3D"EN-US">2) I</span><span st=
yle=3D"">f the aim is to have a homogenous mempool state and to model what =
will get mined, shouldn=E2=80=99t we reach this state through distributed i=
ndependent nodes who decide=C2=A0independently on what they prefer this hom=
ogenous state to be? If we don=E2=80=99t reach this state through this dist=
ributed/independent mechanism, then how are we to reach this state? Who get=
s to decide and steer the direction so that we all converge towards this ho=
mogenous state?=C2=A0 One of the strongest aspects of bitcoin is the fact t=
hat no single party can force a change/direction, and the network has to so=
mehow reach a shared agreement through independent decision makers who act =
in what manner they think is best. The proposed BIP seems to be aligned wit=
h such a principle, I fail to see any authoritarian aspect here.=C2=A0</spa=
n></p><p style=3D"color:rgba(232,230,227,0.87);font-family:Roboto,RobotoDra=
ft,Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif;font-size:14px"><span style=3D"">3)=C2=A0</sp=
an><span style=3D"">I share your sentiment and the aim to have a homogenous=
 mempool state, but I am skeptical of the manner in which we are to achieve=
 this according to the ideas you have here expressed (namely not through a =
distributed independent organic manner)</span></p><p style=3D"color:rgba(23=
2,230,227,0.87);font-family:Roboto,RobotoDraft,Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif;f=
ont-size:14px"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><br></span></p><p style=3D"color:rgba(2=
32,230,227,0.87);font-family:Roboto,RobotoDraft,Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif;=
font-size:14px"><span lang=3D"EN-US">Respectfully, yes_please=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0</span></p></div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote gmail_quote_container"=
><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Thu, Sep 25, 2025 at 12:50=E2=80=
=AFAM Greg Maxwell &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:gmaxwell@gmail.com">gmaxwell@gmail=
.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"mar=
gin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1=
ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div>So that when the &quot;consistent state&quot; cha=
nges as a result of some issue you can update configs instead of having to =
update software-- which has considerable more costs and risks, especially i=
f you&#39;re carrying local customizations as many miners do.</div><div><br=
></div></div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail=
_attr">On Wed, Sep 24, 2025 at 8:47=E2=80=AFPM Aiden McClelland &lt;<a href=
=3D"mailto:me@drbonez.dev" target=3D"_blank">me@drbonez.dev</a>&gt; wrote:<=
br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8e=
x;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">If mempool consi=
stency across the network is all that is important, why allow any configura=
tion of mempool relay policies at all?<br><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><d=
iv dir=3D"auto" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Wednesday, September 24, 2025 at 12=
:47:28=E2=80=AFPM UTC-6 Greg Maxwell wrote:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"g=
mail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204=
,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div>This appears to substanti=
ally=C2=A0misunderstands the purpose of the mempool broadly in the network-=
- it&#39;s purpose is to model what will get mined.=C2=A0 If you&#39;re not=
 doing that you might as well set blocks only.=C2=A0 Significant=C2=A0discr=
epancies=C2=A0are harmful to the system and promote centralization=C2=A0and=
 fail to achieve a useful purpose in any case.=C2=A0 What marginal benefits=
 might be provided do not justify=C2=A0building and deploying the technolog=
ical=C2=A0infrastructure=C2=A0for massive censorship.</div><div><br></div><=
div>If you think this is important, I advise you to select another cryptocu=
rrency which is compatible with such authoritarian=C2=A0leanings.=C2=A0 -- =
though I am unsure if any exist since it is such a transparently pointless =
direction.</div><div><br></div></div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"></div><=
div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Wed, Sep=
 24, 2025 at 6:30=E2=80=AFPM Aiden McClelland &lt;<a rel=3D"nofollow">m...@=
drbonez.dev</a>&gt; wrote:<br></div></div><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><block=
quote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1=
px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div>Hi all,</div><div><br></di=
v><div>I&#39;d like to share for discussion a draft BIP to allow for a modu=
lar mempool/relay policy: <a href=3D"https://github.com/bitcoin/bips/pull/1=
985" rel=3D"nofollow" target=3D"_blank">https://github.com/bitcoin/bips/pul=
l/1985</a><br><br></div><div>I think it could potentially reduce conflict w=
ithin the community around relay policy, as an alternative to running lots =
of different node implementations/forks when there are disagreements.</div>=
<div><br></div><div>I am working on a reference implementation using Bellar=
d&#39;s QuickJS, but it has been almost a decade since I&#39;ve written C++=
, so it&#39;s slow going and I&#39;m sure doesn&#39;t follow best-practices=
. Once it&#39;s working, it can be cleaned up.</div><div><br></div><div>Tha=
nks,</div><div>Aiden McClelland<br></div>

<p></p></blockquote></div><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><blockquote class=3D"g=
mail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204=
,204,204);padding-left:1ex">

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