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From: Erik Aronesty <erik@q32.com>
Date: Mon, 5 Dec 2022 16:14:03 -0500
Message-ID: <CAJowKgJQJvsZQgTjEqXaz6DVw_iG4JfXCL8s0G7v2o3O453Ajg@mail.gmail.com>
To: John Carvalho <john@synonym.to>, 
 Bitcoin Protocol Discussion <bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org>
Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="00000000000069996505ef1b2b43"
Subject: Re: [bitcoin-dev] [Opt-in full-RBF] Zero-conf apps in immediate
 danger (angus)
Precedence: list

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>
>
>
> Many zero-conf proponents work on the bleeding edge of supporting
> Lightning, including myself. Lightning is not risk-free and the base layer
> should not be assuming it as a primary dependency for commercial payments.
>

for low-value payments, lightning is the only workable version because the
current low-fee environment is not scalable and never will be

for high valued payments, zero conf was never valuable or useful and never
can be - it was always the beneficence of users you are relying on   low
fee/high fee double spends of a zero conf with no rbf flag has
been demonstrated, repeatedly ad nauseum.

... so there is no long term scenario where zero conf is valuable.

right *now* with low fees it might "seem nice", but really it just
incentivises network-wide surveillance, increased peer burden on nodes, and
unsustainable practices that are akin to a "mev" bounty hanging over
merchant's heads.

also, i've been using bitcoin for years without zero conf.   selling and
buying online.   operating merchants with millions in transactions.   the
20 minute wait before i ship is meaningless, and the only risk i take on is
that a user replaces a transaction with a different destination.   which
i've never observed.   even with the flag on (which i dont care about, and
never have).

and if i do observe it ... i just won't ship.   it was easy to code up.
 the user will have to initiate a new tx.   i have no objection to a user
being able to cancel their order.   why would i?


>

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<div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quot=
e" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204)=
;padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div><br><br></div><div>Many zero-conf =
proponents work on the bleeding edge of supporting Lightning, including mys=
elf. Lightning is not risk-free and the base layer should not be assuming i=
t as a primary dependency for commercial payments. </div></div></blockquote=
><div><br></div>for low-value payments, lightning is the only workable vers=
ion because the current low-fee environment is not scalable and never will =
be<br><div><br>for high valued payments, zero conf was never valuable or us=
eful and never can be - it was always the beneficence of users you are rely=
ing on=C2=A0 =C2=A0low fee/high fee double spends of a zero conf with no rb=
f flag has been=C2=A0demonstrated, repeatedly ad nauseum.=C2=A0 =C2=A0<br><=
br>... so there is no long term scenario where zero conf is valuable.=C2=A0=
 =C2=A0<br><br>right *now* with low fees it might &quot;seem nice&quot;, bu=
t really it just incentivises network-wide surveillance, increased peer bur=
den on nodes, and unsustainable practices that are akin to a &quot;mev&quot=
; bounty hanging over merchant&#39;s heads.<br><br>also, i&#39;ve been usin=
g bitcoin for years without zero conf.=C2=A0 =C2=A0selling and buying onlin=
e.=C2=A0 =C2=A0operating merchants with millions in transactions.=C2=A0 =C2=
=A0the 20 minute wait before i ship is meaningless, and the only risk i tak=
e on is that a user replaces a transaction with a different destination.=C2=
=A0 =C2=A0which i&#39;ve never observed.=C2=A0 =C2=A0even with the flag on =
(which i dont care about, and never have).<br><br>and if i do observe it ..=
. i just=C2=A0won&#39;t ship.=C2=A0 =C2=A0it was easy to code up.=C2=A0 =C2=
=A0the user will have to initiate a new tx.=C2=A0 =C2=A0i have no objection=
 to a user being able to cancel their order.=C2=A0 =C2=A0why would i?<br><b=
r></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex=
;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><br>
</blockquote></div></div>

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