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In-Reply-To: <CAD2Ti2-QChRZYZDSH1avit3snCLMws2UNmHQ_aY5O4txCS3AGg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAD2Ti2-QChRZYZDSH1avit3snCLMws2UNmHQ_aY5O4txCS3AGg@mail.gmail.com>
Date: Sat, 27 Jun 2015 16:54:00 -0700
Message-ID: <CADm_WcbjAmrBXJs6s9rvVKccgOA3sDut0o2ALTKqWQrjT=MyxQ@mail.gmail.com>
From: Jeff Garzik <jgarzik@gmail.com>
To: grarpamp <grarpamp@gmail.com>
Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=f46d0438eb9d0f8539051988920f
Cc: bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org
Subject: Re: [bitcoin-dev] Mailing List Administrivia - GPG, Archives,
 Breakage, TODO, mirrors, etc
Precedence: list

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Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8

Generally agreed w/ all this.

To preserve digital signatures now and in the future, and make mbox
archives actually useful, a minimum modification policy is needed.



On Sat, Jun 27, 2015 at 3:21 PM, grarpamp <grarpamp@gmail.com> wrote:

> On Sun, Jun 21, 2015 at 9:14 PM, Frank Flores <frankf44@gmail.com> wrote:
> > If you're going to go through the trouble of signing your public emails
> ...
>
> ... then you should also demand that the official archives of your
> favorite lists preserve them and their verifiability in the supposedly
> canonical reference "mbox" format that they distribute.
>
> On Wed, Jun 24, 2015 at 7:47 AM, Wladimir J. van der Laan
> <laanwj@gmail.com> wrote:
> > Subject: [bitcoin-dev] New GPG signing key for Bitcoin Core binary
> releases
>
>
> http://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/bitcoin-dev/2015-June/009045.html
> http://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/bitcoin-dev/2015-June.txt.gz
>
> As you can clearly see, both the HTML archives and the "mbox"
> archives have corrupted this message, it will not verify. Do not
> try to say this case is trivial, the problem itself is not trivial,
> it's gratuitous, and it applies to all matching messages... text,
> code, binary inline... that's dangerous.
>
> Do not try to say this corruption prevents spam, it does not.
> Spammers simply subscribe to the list and harvest everything
> efficiently in realtime... no webcrawling overhead, no stale
> addresses. Obfuscation is futile.
>
> This misfeature needs to be disabled.
>
>
>
> On Fri, Jun 19, 2015 at 12:57 AM, Warren Togami Jr. <wtogami@gmail.com>
> wrote:
> > archives will be exported
> > and imported into the new list server
>
> On Tue, Jun 23, 2015 at 2:45 PM, Andy Schroder <info@andyschroder.com>
> wrote:
> > I'm not sure if anyone has submitted a request for gmane
>
> On Sun, Jun 21, 2015 at 5:35 PM, s7r <s7r@sky-ip.org> wrote:
> > Do we have all the archives imported? I run several full nodes and
> > mirrors for open source projects, if you think it's useful, I can
> > provide a mirror for the mail list archives.
>
> Yes... these other mirrors, archives, analysis, journalism, and
> interfaces are useful. However, as it is now, there are no useful
> authoritative sources for them to seed from... they're all corrupt.
> And any subscribed realtime sources, though nice, are subject to
> downtime, administrative and other unrecoverable gaps. Your mirror
> project is a fine idea, you should demand that the pristine historical
> sources be made publicly available. Not just for you, but for everyone.
>
>
>
> On Wed, Jun 17, 2015, grarpamp wrote:
> > ...
>
> As before, the current "mbox" archives are broken and not useful...
>
> a) They corrupt message data, messages are unverifiable, another example...
>
> http://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/bitcoin-dev/2015-June/009132.html
>    http://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/bitcoin-dev/2015-June.txt.gz
> b) They are missing the minimum set of original headers necessary
>    for fully replyable, threadable, sortable, searchable, context
>    preserving and direct use by users MUA's in their local environment:
>    (Date, From, To, Cc, Subject, Message-ID, In-Reply-To, References)
> c) They do not include attachments (patches, signatures, images, crypto,
>    data) that are absolutely necessary to the context and archives
>    of all lists. Instead they stupidly throw them away to "web links"
>    which results not only in uselessness of the so called "mbox"
>    version, but in many thousands of needless fetches by archive
>    users and indexers. And hours of wasted work attempting to
>    postprocess them into usable form.
>    Valuable content lost from the "mbox" files this June alone:
>     418 attachment.html
>     106 attachment.sig
>       6 attachment.jpe
>       4 attachment.png
>       2 attachment.bin
> d) There appear to be at least 15 instances of unescaped '^From '
>    in the "mbox". Regeneration with current mailman may fix. One such
>    case is here:
>
> http://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/bitcoin-dev/2014-January/004245.html
>
> http://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/bitcoin-dev/2014-January.txt.gz
>
>
>
> Please fix all the above mentioned issues by providing the full raw
> archives in regularly updated [gzip/7z] mbox format. The internet
> thanks you :)
>
> Example, compare the "Downloadable version"s here:
> http://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/bitcoin-dev/
> https://cpunks.org/pipermail/cypherpunks/
> https://cpunks.org/pipermail/cypherpunks/2015-February/006820.html
>
>
>
> On Tue, Jun 23, 2015 at 2:45 PM, Andy Schroder <info@andyschroder.com>
> wrote:
> > Regarding message footers and the subject prefix
>
> Yes, they're also corruptive and space wasting clutter, for and by
> the clueless :( Both of them should be turned off.
> _______________________________________________
> bitcoin-dev mailing list
> bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org
> https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev
>

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Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"ltr">Generally agreed w/ all this.<div><br></div><div>To preser=
ve digital signatures now and in the future, and make mbox archives actuall=
y useful, a minimum modification policy is needed.</div><div><br></div><div=
><br></div></div><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">=
On Sat, Jun 27, 2015 at 3:21 PM, grarpamp <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"=
mailto:grarpamp@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">grarpamp@gmail.com</a>&gt;</sp=
an> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;=
border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">On Sun, Jun 21, 2015 at 9:14 P=
M, Frank Flores &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:frankf44@gmail.com">frankf44@gmail.co=
m</a>&gt; wrote:<br>
&gt; If you&#39;re going to go through the trouble of signing your public e=
mails ...<br>
<br>
... then you should also demand that the official archives of your<br>
favorite lists preserve them and their verifiability in the supposedly<br>
canonical reference &quot;mbox&quot; format that they distribute.<br>
<br>
On Wed, Jun 24, 2015 at 7:47 AM, Wladimir J. van der Laan<br>
&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:laanwj@gmail.com">laanwj@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br>
&gt; Subject: [bitcoin-dev] New GPG signing key for Bitcoin Core binary rel=
eases<br>
<br>
<a href=3D"http://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/bitcoin-dev/2015-June=
/009045.html" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">http://lists.linuxfounda=
tion.org/pipermail/bitcoin-dev/2015-June/009045.html</a><br>
<a href=3D"http://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/bitcoin-dev/2015-June=
.txt.gz" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">http://lists.linuxfoundation.=
org/pipermail/bitcoin-dev/2015-June.txt.gz</a><br>
<br>
As you can clearly see, both the HTML archives and the &quot;mbox&quot;<br>
archives have corrupted this message, it will not verify. Do not<br>
try to say this case is trivial, the problem itself is not trivial,<br>
it&#39;s gratuitous, and it applies to all matching messages... text,<br>
code, binary inline... that&#39;s dangerous.<br>
<br>
Do not try to say this corruption prevents spam, it does not.<br>
Spammers simply subscribe to the list and harvest everything<br>
efficiently in realtime... no webcrawling overhead, no stale<br>
addresses. Obfuscation is futile.<br>
<br>
This misfeature needs to be disabled.<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
On Fri, Jun 19, 2015 at 12:57 AM, Warren Togami Jr. &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:w=
togami@gmail.com">wtogami@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br>
&gt; archives will be exported<br>
&gt; and imported into the new list server<br>
<br>
On Tue, Jun 23, 2015 at 2:45 PM, Andy Schroder &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:info@a=
ndyschroder.com">info@andyschroder.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br>
&gt; I&#39;m not sure if anyone has submitted a request for gmane<br>
<br>
On Sun, Jun 21, 2015 at 5:35 PM, s7r &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:s7r@sky-ip.org">=
s7r@sky-ip.org</a>&gt; wrote:<br>
&gt; Do we have all the archives imported? I run several full nodes and<br>
&gt; mirrors for open source projects, if you think it&#39;s useful, I can<=
br>
&gt; provide a mirror for the mail list archives.<br>
<br>
Yes... these other mirrors, archives, analysis, journalism, and<br>
interfaces are useful. However, as it is now, there are no useful<br>
authoritative sources for them to seed from... they&#39;re all corrupt.<br>
And any subscribed realtime sources, though nice, are subject to<br>
downtime, administrative and other unrecoverable gaps. Your mirror<br>
project is a fine idea, you should demand that the pristine historical<br>
sources be made publicly available. Not just for you, but for everyone.<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
On Wed, Jun 17, 2015, grarpamp wrote:<br>
&gt; ...<br>
<br>
As before, the current &quot;mbox&quot; archives are broken and not useful.=
..<br>
<br>
a) They corrupt message data, messages are unverifiable, another example...=
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0<a href=3D"http://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/bitcoin-=
dev/2015-June/009132.html" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">http://list=
s.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/bitcoin-dev/2015-June/009132.html</a><br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0<a href=3D"http://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/bitcoin-=
dev/2015-June.txt.gz" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">http://lists.lin=
uxfoundation.org/pipermail/bitcoin-dev/2015-June.txt.gz</a><br>
b) They are missing the minimum set of original headers necessary<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0for fully replyable, threadable, sortable, searchable, context=
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0preserving and direct use by users MUA&#39;s in their local en=
vironment:<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0(Date, From, To, Cc, Subject, Message-ID, In-Reply-To, Referen=
ces)<br>
c) They do not include attachments (patches, signatures, images, crypto,<br=
>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0data) that are absolutely necessary to the context and archive=
s<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0of all lists. Instead they stupidly throw them away to &quot;w=
eb links&quot;<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0which results not only in uselessness of the so called &quot;m=
box&quot;<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0version, but in many thousands of needless fetches by archive<=
br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0users and indexers. And hours of wasted work attempting to<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0postprocess them into usable form.<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0Valuable content lost from the &quot;mbox&quot; files this Jun=
e alone:<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 418 attachment.html<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 106 attachment.sig<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 6 attachment.jpe<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 4 attachment.png<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 2 attachment.bin<br>
d) There appear to be at least 15 instances of unescaped &#39;^From &#39;<b=
r>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0in the &quot;mbox&quot;. Regeneration with current mailman may=
 fix. One such<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0case is here:<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0<a href=3D"http://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/bitcoin-=
dev/2014-January/004245.html" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">http://l=
ists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/bitcoin-dev/2014-January/004245.html</a>=
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0<a href=3D"http://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/bitcoin-=
dev/2014-January.txt.gz" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">http://lists.=
linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/bitcoin-dev/2014-January.txt.gz</a><br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Please fix all the above mentioned issues by providing the full raw<br>
archives in regularly updated [gzip/7z] mbox format. The internet<br>
thanks you :)<br>
<br>
Example, compare the &quot;Downloadable version&quot;s here:<br>
<a href=3D"http://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/bitcoin-dev/" rel=3D"=
noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">http://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/bi=
tcoin-dev/</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://cpunks.org/pipermail/cypherpunks/" rel=3D"noreferrer" ta=
rget=3D"_blank">https://cpunks.org/pipermail/cypherpunks/</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://cpunks.org/pipermail/cypherpunks/2015-February/006820.ht=
ml" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://cpunks.org/pipermail/cyphe=
rpunks/2015-February/006820.html</a><br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
On Tue, Jun 23, 2015 at 2:45 PM, Andy Schroder &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:info@a=
ndyschroder.com">info@andyschroder.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br>
&gt; Regarding message footers and the subject prefix<br>
<br>
Yes, they&#39;re also corruptive and space wasting clutter, for and by<br>
the clueless :( Both of them should be turned off.<br>
_______________________________________________<br>
bitcoin-dev mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org">bitcoin-dev@lists.=
linuxfoundation.org</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev" =
rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mail=
man/listinfo/bitcoin-dev</a><br>
</blockquote></div><br></div>

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