Received: from sog-mx-3.v43.ch3.sourceforge.com ([172.29.43.193]
	helo=mx.sourceforge.net)
	by sfs-ml-4.v29.ch3.sourceforge.com with esmtp (Exim 4.76)
	(envelope-from <pete@petertodd.org>) id 1VnoEW-00053d-F4
	for bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net;
	Tue, 03 Dec 2013 11:33:40 +0000
Received-SPF: pass (sog-mx-3.v43.ch3.sourceforge.com: domain of petertodd.org
	designates 62.13.149.78 as permitted sender)
	client-ip=62.13.149.78; envelope-from=pete@petertodd.org;
	helo=outmail149078.authsmtp.net; 
Received: from outmail149078.authsmtp.net ([62.13.149.78])
	by sog-mx-3.v43.ch3.sourceforge.com with esmtp (Exim 4.76)
	id 1VnoEV-0005PF-Ct for bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net;
	Tue, 03 Dec 2013 11:33:40 +0000
Received: from mail-c237.authsmtp.com (mail-c237.authsmtp.com [62.13.128.237])
	by punt8.authsmtp.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id rB3BXV7t010512; 
	Tue, 3 Dec 2013 11:33:31 GMT
Received: from tilt (ge-19-102-21.service.infuturo.it [151.19.102.21])
	(authenticated bits=128)
	by mail.authsmtp.com (8.14.2/8.14.2/) with ESMTP id rB3BXO2k062835
	(version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NO);
	Tue, 3 Dec 2013 11:33:27 GMT
Date: Tue, 3 Dec 2013 06:33:21 -0500
From: Peter Todd <pete@petertodd.org>
To: Drak <drak@zikula.org>
Message-ID: <20131203113321.GB12623@tilt>
References: <5E4597E4-C1C7-4536-8CF0-82EDD7715DAB@plan99.net>
	<l7fpbn$hf6$1@ger.gmane.org>
	<39921E12-B411-4430-9D56-04F53906B109@plan99.net>
	<CAGLkj4C9fyAX1CnB0oZH3BwLRQp6WOo9kLUqDhRUSA6y3LxYvg@mail.gmail.com>
	<CANEZrP1C=Hc-3f-rqQ+wYrPn-eUj52HjN+qRQdJMWvnP+dkK=Q@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAJHLa0P_uzEQ2OG2FTXyD2Zw4RzujNBxKbKD04CSS1sLNpLUUQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<CANEZrP2hf2853w9f4__Ji9v3eRRU0u6pEzPxAmFN+iH067gtnA@mail.gmail.com>
	<CABsx9T3NQDPL6=pz5BD5DsP0qh0x3LJOCj2H3yY5tzL2_DivGA@mail.gmail.com>
	<20131203110354.GA6513@tilt>
	<CANAnSg10KnY=oSM61onYjw5Fp==BwByEeoZUXWfzHqNFjsHYGA@mail.gmail.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha256;
	protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="zx4FCpZtqtKETZ7O"
Content-Disposition: inline
In-Reply-To: <CANAnSg10KnY=oSM61onYjw5Fp==BwByEeoZUXWfzHqNFjsHYGA@mail.gmail.com>
User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.21 (2010-09-15)
X-Server-Quench: bad239eb-5c0e-11e3-94fa-002590a135d3
X-AuthReport-Spam: If SPAM / abuse - report it at:
	http://www.authsmtp.com/abuse
X-AuthRoute: OCd2Yg0TA1ZNQRgX IjsJECJaVQIpKltL GxAVKBZePFsRUQkR
	aQdMdgEUHFAXAgsB AmUbWlVeU157W2s7 ag9QcwRUfEtOXRto
	UVdMSlVNFUsqcx9z bmEcCRl0dQ1FfTBx Z0VqVj4JDRB4dk8o
	EFNRRm1TeGZhPWMC WUQOJh5UcAFPdx8U a1N6AHBDAzANdhES
	HhM4ODE3eDlSNilR RRkIIFQOdA4lGjk1 WxEEEn0hEEAeDyw1
	I1QdEmBUF0IQP0Mu KjMA
X-Authentic-SMTP: 61633532353630.1024:706
X-AuthFastPath: 0 (Was 255)
X-AuthSMTP-Origin: 151.19.102.21/587
X-AuthVirus-Status: No virus detected - but ensure you scan with your own
	anti-virus system.
X-Spam-Score: -1.5 (-)
X-Spam-Report: Spam Filtering performed by mx.sourceforge.net.
	See http://spamassassin.org/tag/ for more details.
	-1.5 SPF_CHECK_PASS SPF reports sender host as permitted sender for
	sender-domain
	-0.0 SPF_PASS               SPF: sender matches SPF record
	0.0 URIBL_BLOCKED ADMINISTRATOR NOTICE: The query to URIBL was blocked.
	See
	http://wiki.apache.org/spamassassin/DnsBlocklists#dnsbl-block
	for more information. [URIs: petertodd.org]
X-Headers-End: 1VnoEV-0005PF-Ct
Cc: Bitcoin Dev <bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net>
Subject: Re: [Bitcoin-development] Floating fees and SPV clients
X-BeenThere: bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9
Precedence: list
List-Id: <bitcoin-development.lists.sourceforge.net>
List-Unsubscribe: <https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development>,
	<mailto:bitcoin-development-request@lists.sourceforge.net?subject=unsubscribe>
List-Archive: <http://sourceforge.net/mailarchive/forum.php?forum_name=bitcoin-development>
List-Post: <mailto:bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net>
List-Help: <mailto:bitcoin-development-request@lists.sourceforge.net?subject=help>
List-Subscribe: <https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development>,
	<mailto:bitcoin-development-request@lists.sourceforge.net?subject=subscribe>
X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 03 Dec 2013 11:33:40 -0000


--zx4FCpZtqtKETZ7O
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Disposition: inline
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

On Tue, Dec 03, 2013 at 11:09:51AM +0000, Drak wrote:
> On 3 December 2013 11:03, Peter Todd <pete@petertodd.org> wrote:
>=20
> > UI once both are implemented is to not show anything in the default
> > case, and explain to the user why they have to pay extra in the unusual
> > case where they are spending a whole bunch of dust.
>=20
>=20
> Yes, that's the other problem with a merchant setting a fee - they have no
> idea how large the transaction might be. If you spend a bunch of dust the
> fee could be 2 or 3x the expected fee. Then you might get merchants
> including higher fees by default to account for this. That means we end up
> paying more per kb over time.

Right, which is solved by requiring a fee-per-kb, and only allowing up
to a certain amount to be deducted from the amount paid to pay that
total fee.


But really, we're better off leaving fees visible to the user in the
first place: they're how Bitcoin works and it's not going to change.
(was just talking to Taylor from Hive Wallet about that in person
actually)

--=20
'peter'[:-1]@petertodd.org
000000000000000f9102d27cfd61ea9e8bb324593593ca3ce6ba53153ff251b3

--zx4FCpZtqtKETZ7O
Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc"
Content-Description: Digital signature

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: GnuPG v1.4.12 (GNU/Linux)

iQEbBAEBCAAGBQJSncGBAAoJECSBQD2l8JH767oH92FEzkuF5M3h5J+Wn/uuZaQX
bbUpbptXpqBOC6jx5LgExVSKUUGzuK5Kp7dDjch05SyLjjkJH58v4BLR8HVA5a1o
4EQaXOF+bj8hxp5cmCimEQGxk1ljG7Oj+PZf+sdFRwfzA0uZpChXJC1ipRmGwHz6
saxMpQ+E/idgSVRAqKlXaodYBUPgOoA+0HFGWUIlFuFuHf2z2Qo7B/C9fPHtbKB8
akDVSRNdYSJK3lU0f1UjIhgt+AIBZZ/XZ8iKca06XagISsDqrLLJ3n91lxD81pdR
g0oulqL/4NCKmVC9oz+AubQ/qq3cr6jo2kj8+rseOdJPngSRfIU0kr/X2xJLew==
=/eDS
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

--zx4FCpZtqtKETZ7O--