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From: Erik Aronesty <erik@q32.com>
Date: Wed, 14 Dec 2022 12:41:17 -0500
Message-ID: <CAJowKgJTbTEoG0u1dtA5=vr-LBY40yDSoOzD+aL3CUaaEhxNaQ@mail.gmail.com>
To: Daniel Lipshitz <daniel@gap600.com>, 
 Bitcoin Protocol Discussion <bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org>
Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="00000000000029ec1805efcd3f09"
Cc: John Carvalho <john@synonym.to>
Subject: Re: [bitcoin-dev] A proposal for Full RBF to not exclude Zero Conf
 use case
Precedence: list

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NACK

support for 0-conf is harmful for reasons already stated ad nauseum



On Wed, Dec 14, 2022 at 4:58 AM Daniel Lipshitz via bitcoin-dev <
bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org> wrote:

> A 0-conf double spend caused by FSS-RBF would be harmless since the
> original output (address and amounts) remain in the double spending trx.
>
> So all a merchant would need to do is monitor  block inclusion for the
> relevant output. Addition of some wallet logic would resolve it easily.
>
> Technically the only difference is that a FSS-RBF requires an additional
> input trx to be included in the second trx.
>
> Not clear to me, why the limitation of adding an additional input hinders
> the added value of FullRBF and how significant that hinderance is.
>
>
>
> On Tue, 13 Dec 2022 at 11:59 John Carvalho <john@synonym.to> wrote:
>
>> Why wasn't this solution put in place back then? Are there problems with
>> the design?
>>
>> While I still think there are unhealthy side-effects of Full-RBF (like
>> more doublespending at unknowing merchants, after years of FSS protection)
>> I think discussion of this FSS-RBF feature is worth considering.
>>
>> --
>> John Carvalho
>> CEO, Synonym.to <http://synonym.to/>
>>
>>
>> On Tue, Dec 13, 2022 at 8:09 AM Daniel Lipshitz <daniel@gap600.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Thank you for bringing that to my attention, apologies for not being
>>> aware of it.
>>>
>>> First-seen-safe replace-by-fee as detailed here
>>> https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/bitcoin-dev/2015-May/008248.html
>>> by Peter Todd  seems to be a very suitable option and route
>>> which balances FullRBF while retaining  the significant 0-conf use case.
>>>
>>> This would seem like a good way forward.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> ________________________________
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Tue, Dec 13, 2022 at 6:20 AM Yuval Kogman <nothingmuch@woobling.org>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>>
>>>> https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/bitcoin-dev/2015-May/008248.html
>>>>
>>> --
> ________________________________
> Daniel Lipshitz
> GAP600
> www.Gap600.com
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> bitcoin-dev mailing list
> bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org
> https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev
>

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<div dir=3D"ltr">NACK<div><br></div><div><div>support for 0-conf is harmful=
=C2=A0for reasons already stated ad nauseum</div></div><div><br></div><div>=
<br></div></div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gm=
ail_attr">On Wed, Dec 14, 2022 at 4:58 AM Daniel Lipshitz via bitcoin-dev &=
lt;<a href=3D"mailto:bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org">bitcoin-dev@lis=
ts.linuxfoundation.org</a>&gt; wrote:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_q=
uote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,2=
04);padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"auto">A 0-conf double spend caused by FSS=
-RBF would be harmless since the original output (address and amounts) rema=
in in the double spending trx.=C2=A0</div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div =
dir=3D"auto">So all a merchant would need to do is monitor =C2=A0block incl=
usion for the relevant output. Addition of some wallet logic would resolve =
it easily.</div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto">Technically t=
he only difference is that a FSS-RBF requires an additional input trx to be=
 included in the second trx.=C2=A0</div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div di=
r=3D"auto">Not clear to me, why the limitation of adding an additional inpu=
t hinders the added value of FullRBF and how significant that hinderance is=
.=C2=A0</div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div><=
br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Tue,=
 13 Dec 2022 at 11:59 John Carvalho &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:john@synonym.to" =
target=3D"_blank">john@synonym.to</a>&gt; wrote:<br></div><blockquote class=
=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rg=
b(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr">Why wasn&#39;t this solut=
ion put in=C2=A0place back then? Are there problems with the design?<div><b=
r></div><div>While I still think there are unhealthy side-effects of Full-R=
BF (like more doublespending at unknowing=C2=A0merchants, after years of FS=
S protection) I think discussion of this FSS-RBF feature is worth consideri=
ng.</div><div><br clear=3D"all"><div><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><spa=
n style=3D"color:rgb(34,34,34)">--</span><br style=3D"color:rgb(34,34,34)">=
<div dir=3D"ltr" style=3D"color:rgb(34,34,34)"><div dir=3D"ltr">John Carval=
ho</div><div dir=3D"ltr">CEO,=C2=A0<a href=3D"http://synonym.to/" style=3D"=
color:rgb(17,85,204)" target=3D"_blank">Synonym.to</a><br><div><font size=
=3D"1" style=3D"color:rgb(34,34,34)"><br></font></div></div></div></div></d=
iv></div></div></div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr" class=
=3D"gmail_attr">On Tue, Dec 13, 2022 at 8:09 AM Daniel Lipshitz &lt;<a href=
=3D"mailto:daniel@gap600.com" target=3D"_blank">daniel@gap600.com</a>&gt; w=
rote:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0p=
x 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir=
=3D"ltr">Thank you for bringing that to my attention, apologies for not bei=
ng aware of it.<div><br></div><div>First-seen-safe replace-by-fee as detail=
ed here=C2=A0<a href=3D"https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/bitcoin=
-dev/2015-May/008248.html" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://lis=
ts.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/bitcoin-dev/2015-May/008248.html</a>=C2=A0=
 by Peter Todd=C2=A0<span style=3D"white-space:pre-wrap;color:rgb(0,0,0)"> =
</span>seems to be a very suitable option and route which=C2=A0balances Ful=
lRBF while retaining=C2=A0 the significant=C2=A00-conf use case.</div><div>=
<br></div><div>This would seem like a good way forward.</div><div><br></div=
><div><br></div><div><br><div><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div><div d=
ir=3D"ltr"><div style=3D"font-size:12.8px">________________________________=
</div><div style=3D"font-size:12.8px"><br></div><div style=3D"font-size:12.=
8px"><br></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div><br><div class=3D"=
gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Tue, Dec 13, 2022 at =
6:20 AM Yuval Kogman &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:nothingmuch@woobling.org" target=
=3D"_blank">nothingmuch@woobling.org</a>&gt; wrote:<br></div><blockquote cl=
ass=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid=
 rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><a href=3D"https://lists.linuxfoundatio=
n.org/pipermail/bitcoin-dev/2015-May/008248.html" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=
=3D"_blank">https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/bitcoin-dev/2015-Ma=
y/008248.html</a><br>
</blockquote></div>
</blockquote></div>
</blockquote></div></div>-- <br><div dir=3D"ltr">__________________________=
______<br>Daniel Lipshitz<br>GAP600<br><a href=3D"http://www.Gap600.com" ta=
rget=3D"_blank">www.Gap600.com</a><br><br><br></div>
_______________________________________________<br>
bitcoin-dev mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org" target=3D"_blank">=
bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev" =
rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mail=
man/listinfo/bitcoin-dev</a><br>
</blockquote></div>

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