Received: from sog-mx-1.v43.ch3.sourceforge.com ([172.29.43.191] helo=mx.sourceforge.net) by sfs-ml-4.v29.ch3.sourceforge.com with esmtp (Exim 4.76) (envelope-from <raystonn@hotmail.com>) id 1Z5FGU-0006Te-Pi for bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net; Wed, 17 Jun 2015 15:28:34 +0000 Received-SPF: pass (sog-mx-1.v43.ch3.sourceforge.com: domain of hotmail.com designates 65.55.34.217 as permitted sender) client-ip=65.55.34.217; envelope-from=raystonn@hotmail.com; helo=COL004-OMC4S15.hotmail.com; Received: from col004-omc4s15.hotmail.com ([65.55.34.217]) by sog-mx-1.v43.ch3.sourceforge.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.76) id 1Z5FGT-0007Rf-5i for bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net; Wed, 17 Jun 2015 15:28:34 +0000 Received: from COL131-DS14 ([65.55.34.199]) by COL004-OMC4S15.hotmail.com over TLS secured channel with Microsoft SMTPSVC(7.5.7601.22751); Wed, 17 Jun 2015 08:28:27 -0700 X-TMN: [pGXl6ZnoGUL2w74rJlOxGubDF35kzeSS] X-Originating-Email: [raystonn@hotmail.com] Message-ID: <COL131-DS14939FCAB6DB494743B545CDA60@phx.gbl> From: "Raystonn ." <raystonn@hotmail.com> To: "Mike Hearn" <mike@plan99.net>, "Adam Back" <adam@cypherspace.org> References: <COL131-DS3380A8C27DE6CBC0D98A4CDB60@phx.gbl> In-Reply-To: <COL131-DS3380A8C27DE6CBC0D98A4CDB60@phx.gbl> Date: Wed, 17 Jun 2015 08:28:07 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0026_01D0A8D7.898F2880" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Importance: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Windows Live Mail 15.4.3555.308 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V15.4.3555.308 X-OriginalArrivalTime: 17 Jun 2015 15:28:27.0519 (UTC) FILETIME=[41FA90F0:01D0A912] X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Spam-Report: Spam Filtering performed by mx.sourceforge.net. See http://spamassassin.org/tag/ for more details. -1.5 SPF_CHECK_PASS SPF reports sender host as permitted sender for sender-domain 0.0 FREEMAIL_FROM Sender email is commonly abused enduser mail provider (raystonn[at]hotmail.com) -0.0 RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE RBL: Sender listed at http://www.dnswl.org/, no trust [65.55.34.217 listed in list.dnswl.org] -0.0 SPF_PASS SPF: sender matches SPF record -0.6 RP_MATCHES_RCVD Envelope sender domain matches handover relay domain 1.0 HTML_MESSAGE BODY: HTML included in message 1.1 AWL AWL: Adjusted score from AWL reputation of From: address X-Headers-End: 1Z5FGT-0007Rf-5i Cc: Bitcoin Dev <bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net> Subject: Re: [Bitcoin-development] soft-fork block size increase(extensionblocks) X-BeenThere: bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: <bitcoin-development.lists.sourceforge.net> List-Unsubscribe: <https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development>, <mailto:bitcoin-development-request@lists.sourceforge.net?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <http://sourceforge.net/mailarchive/forum.php?forum_name=bitcoin-development> List-Post: <mailto:bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net> List-Help: <mailto:bitcoin-development-request@lists.sourceforge.net?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development>, <mailto:bitcoin-development-request@lists.sourceforge.net?subject=subscribe> X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 17 Jun 2015 15:28:34 -0000 ------=_NextPart_000_0026_01D0A8D7.898F2880 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Wow. That email was delayed by the list for quite some time. It was = sent on 6/1. From: Raystonn .=20 Sent: Monday, June 01, 2015 12:02 PM To: Mike Hearn ; Adam Back=20 Cc: Bitcoin Dev=20 Subject: Re: [Bitcoin-development] soft-fork block size = increase(extensionblocks) I also need to argue for increasing the default block limit to the full = 1MB in the next release. We=E2=80=99re already hitting that limit in = bursts of transactions, which puts pressure on the average displayed in = the below graphs. From: raystonn@hotmail.com=20 Sent: Monday, June 01, 2015 11:39 AM To: Mike Hearn ; Adam Back=20 Cc: Bitcoin Dev=20 Subject: Re: [Bitcoin-development] soft-fork block size increase = (extensionblocks) > And we're not going to get to VISA scale any time soon No, not at these block size limits. The closer we get to the maximum = block size, the slower we grow the average block size toward it. Number = of transactions per day is of course highly correlated with average = block size. Based on these graphs we can expect that hitting 1 million = transactions per day will be impossible without raising the maximum = block size. https://blockchain.info/charts/avg-block-size?showDataPoints=3Dfalse&show= _header=3Dtrue&daysAverageString=3D7×pan=3Dall&scale=3D1&address=3D https://blockchain.info/charts/n-transactions?showDataPoints=3Dfalse&time= span=3Dall&show_header=3Dtrue&daysAverageString=3D7&scale=3D1&address=3D = From: Mike Hearn=20 Sent: Monday, June 01, 2015 11:01 AM To: Adam Back=20 Cc: Bitcoin Dev=20 Subject: Re: [Bitcoin-development] soft-fork block size increase = (extensionblocks) (at reduced security if it has software that doesnt understand it)=20 Well, yes. Isn't that rather key to the issue? Whereas by simply = increasing the block size, SPV wallets don't care (same security and = protocol as before) and fully validating wallets can be updated with a = very small code change. A 1MB client wont even understand the difference between a 1MB and 8MB out payment.=20 Let's say an old client makes a payment that only gets confirmed in an = extension block. The wallet will think the payment is unconfirmed and = show that to the user forever, no? Can you walk through the UX for each case? If I am not misremembering, I think you've sided typically with the huge block, big data center only end of the spectrum. =20 It would be Satoshi, that argued that. I think there must be a communication issue here somewhere. I'm not sure = how this meme has taken hold amongst you guys, as I am the guy who wrote = the scalability page back in 2011: https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Scalability It says: The core Bitcoin network can scale to much higher transaction rates = than are seen today, assuming that nodes in the network are primarily = running on high end servers rather than desktops.=20 By "much higher rates" I meant VISA scale and by "high end server" I = meant high end by today's standards not tomorrows. There's a big = difference between a datacenter and a single server! By definition a = single server is not a datacenter, although it would be conventional to = place it in one. But even with the most wildly optimistic growth = imaginable, I couldn't foresee a time when you needed more than a single = machine to keep up with the transaction stream.=20 And we're not going to get to VISA scale any time soon: I don't think = I've ever argued we will. If it does happen it would presumably be = decades away. Again, short of some currently unimagined killer app. So I don't believe I've ever argued this, and honestly I kinda feel = people are putting words in my mouth. -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ------- -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ----- -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ------- _______________________________________________ Bitcoin-development mailing list Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ------- -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ----- -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ------- _______________________________________________ Bitcoin-development mailing list Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development ------=_NextPart_000_0026_01D0A8D7.898F2880 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable <HTML><HEAD></HEAD> <BODY dir=3Dltr> <DIV dir=3Dltr> <DIV style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial'; COLOR: #000000"> <DIV>Wow. That email was delayed by the list for quite some = time. It=20 was sent on 6/1.</DIV> <DIV> <DIV=20 style=3D'FONT-SIZE: small; TEXT-DECORATION: none; FONT-FAMILY: = "Calibri"; FONT-WEIGHT: normal; COLOR: #000000; FONT-STYLE: normal; = DISPLAY: inline'></DIV> <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt tahoma"> <DIV style=3D"BACKGROUND: #f5f5f5"> <DIV style=3D"font-color: black"><B>From:</B> <A = title=3Draystonn@hotmail.com=20 href=3D"mailto:raystonn@hotmail.com">Raystonn .</A> </DIV> <DIV><B>Sent:</B> Monday, June 01, 2015 12:02 PM</DIV> <DIV><B>To:</B> <A title=3Dmike@plan99.net = href=3D"mailto:mike@plan99.net">Mike=20 Hearn</A> ; <A title=3Dadam@cypherspace.org=20 href=3D"mailto:adam@cypherspace.org">Adam Back</A> </DIV> <DIV><B>Cc:</B> <A title=3Dbitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net=20 href=3D"mailto:bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net">Bitcoin = Dev</A> </DIV> <DIV><B>Subject:</B> Re: [Bitcoin-development] soft-fork block size=20 increase(extensionblocks)</DIV></DIV></DIV> <DIV> </DIV></DIV> <DIV=20 style=3D'FONT-SIZE: small; TEXT-DECORATION: none; FONT-FAMILY: = "Calibri"; FONT-WEIGHT: normal; COLOR: #000000; FONT-STYLE: normal; = DISPLAY: inline'> <DIV dir=3Dltr> <DIV style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial'; COLOR: #000000"> <DIV>I also need to argue for increasing the default block limit to the = full 1MB=20 in the next release. We=E2=80=99re already hitting that limit in = bursts of=20 transactions, which puts pressure on the average displayed in the below=20 graphs.</DIV> <DIV=20 style=3D'FONT-SIZE: small; TEXT-DECORATION: none; FONT-FAMILY: = "Calibri"; FONT-WEIGHT: normal; COLOR: #000000; FONT-STYLE: normal; = DISPLAY: inline'> <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt tahoma"> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV style=3D"BACKGROUND: #f5f5f5"> <DIV style=3D"font-color: black"><B>From:</B> <A = title=3Draystonn@hotmail.com=20 href=3D"mailto:raystonn@hotmail.com">raystonn@hotmail.com</A> </DIV> <DIV><B>Sent:</B> Monday, June 01, 2015 11:39 AM</DIV> <DIV><B>To:</B> <A title=3Dmike@plan99.net = href=3D"mailto:mike@plan99.net">Mike=20 Hearn</A> ; <A title=3Dadam@cypherspace.org=20 href=3D"mailto:adam@cypherspace.org">Adam Back</A> </DIV> <DIV><B>Cc:</B> <A title=3Dbitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net=20 href=3D"mailto:bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net">Bitcoin = Dev</A> </DIV> <DIV><B>Subject:</B> Re: [Bitcoin-development] soft-fork block size = increase=20 (extensionblocks)</DIV></DIV></DIV> <DIV> </DIV></DIV> <DIV=20 style=3D'FONT-SIZE: small; TEXT-DECORATION: none; FONT-FAMILY: = "Calibri"; FONT-WEIGHT: normal; COLOR: #000000; FONT-STYLE: normal; = DISPLAY: inline'> <DIV dir=3Dltr> <DIV style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial'; COLOR: #000000"> <DIV><FONT style=3D"COLOR: #252525" face=3Dsans-serif><SPAN=20 style=3D"LINE-HEIGHT: 17px"><FONT style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 12pt">> And = we're not going=20 to get to VISA scale any time soon</FONT></SPAN></FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT style=3D"COLOR: #252525" size=3D3 face=3Dsans-serif><SPAN=20 style=3D"LINE-HEIGHT: 17px"></SPAN></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT style=3D"COLOR: #252525" size=3D3 face=3Dsans-serif><SPAN=20 style=3D"LINE-HEIGHT: 17px">No, not at these block size limits. = The closer=20 we get to the maximum block size, the slower we grow the average block = size=20 toward it. Number of transactions per day is of course highly = correlated=20 with average block size. Based on these graphs we can expect that = hitting=20 1 million transactions per day will be impossible without raising the = maximum=20 block size.</SPAN></FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><A=20 title=3Dhttps://blockchain.info/charts/avg-block-size?showDataPoints=3Dfa= lse&show_header=3Dtrue&daysAverageString=3D7&timespan=3Dall&a= mp;scale=3D1&address=3D=20 href=3D"https://blockchain.info/charts/avg-block-size?showDataPoints=3Dfa= lse&show_header=3Dtrue&daysAverageString=3D7&timespan=3Dall&a= mp;scale=3D1&address=3D">https://blockchain.info/charts/avg-block-siz= e?showDataPoints=3Dfalse&show_header=3Dtrue&daysAverageString=3D7= &timespan=3Dall&scale=3D1&address=3D</A></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV><A=20 title=3Dhttps://blockchain.info/charts/n-transactions?showDataPoints=3Dfa= lse&timespan=3Dall&show_header=3Dtrue&daysAverageString=3D7&a= mp;scale=3D1&address=3D=20 href=3D"https://blockchain.info/charts/n-transactions?showDataPoints=3Dfa= lse&timespan=3Dall&show_header=3Dtrue&daysAverageString=3D7&a= mp;scale=3D1&address=3D">https://blockchain.info/charts/n-transaction= s?showDataPoints=3Dfalse&timespan=3Dall&show_header=3Dtrue&da= ysAverageString=3D7&scale=3D1&address=3D</A>=20 <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV=20 style=3D'FONT-SIZE: small; TEXT-DECORATION: none; FONT-FAMILY: = "Calibri"; FONT-WEIGHT: normal; COLOR: #000000; FONT-STYLE: normal; = DISPLAY: inline'> <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt tahoma"> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV style=3D"BACKGROUND: #f5f5f5"> <DIV style=3D"font-color: black"><B>From:</B> <A title=3Dmike@plan99.net = href=3D"mailto:mike@plan99.net">Mike Hearn</A> </DIV> <DIV><B>Sent:</B> Monday, June 01, 2015 11:01 AM</DIV> <DIV><B>To:</B> <A title=3Dadam@cypherspace.org=20 href=3D"mailto:adam@cypherspace.org">Adam Back</A> </DIV> <DIV><B>Cc:</B> <A title=3Dbitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net=20 href=3D"mailto:bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net">Bitcoin = Dev</A> </DIV> <DIV><B>Subject:</B> Re: [Bitcoin-development] soft-fork block size = increase=20 (extensionblocks)</DIV></DIV></DIV> <DIV> </DIV></DIV> <DIV=20 style=3D'FONT-SIZE: small; TEXT-DECORATION: none; FONT-FAMILY: = "Calibri"; FONT-WEIGHT: normal; COLOR: #000000; FONT-STYLE: normal; = DISPLAY: inline'> <DIV dir=3Dltr> <DIV class=3Dgmail_extra> <DIV class=3Dgmail_quote> <BLOCKQUOTE class=3Dgmail_quote=20 style=3D"PADDING-LEFT: 1ex; MARGIN: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; BORDER-LEFT: = rgb(204,204,204) 1px solid">(at=20 reduced security if it has software that doesnt understand it) = </BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Well, yes. Isn't that rather key to the issue? Whereas by = simply=20 increasing the block size, SPV wallets don't care (same security and = protocol as=20 before) and fully validating wallets can be updated with a very small = code=20 change.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE class=3Dgmail_quote=20 style=3D"PADDING-LEFT: 1ex; MARGIN: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; BORDER-LEFT: = rgb(204,204,204) 1px solid">A=20 1MB client wont even understand the difference between a 1MB and = 8MB<BR>out=20 payment. </BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Let's say an old client makes a payment that only gets confirmed in = an=20 extension block. The wallet will think the payment is unconfirmed and = show that=20 to the user forever, no?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Can you walk through the UX for each case?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE class=3Dgmail_quote=20 style=3D"PADDING-LEFT: 1ex; MARGIN: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; BORDER-LEFT: = rgb(204,204,204) 1px solid">If=20 I am not misremembering, I think you've sided typically<BR>with the = huge=20 block, big data center only end of the spectrum. </BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>It would be Satoshi, that argued that.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I think there must be a communication issue here somewhere. I'm not = sure=20 how this meme has taken hold amongst you guys, as I am the guy who wrote = the=20 scalability page back in 2011:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><A=20 href=3D"https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Scalability">https://en.bitcoin.it/wik= i/Scalability</A><BR></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>It says:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV></DIV></DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE=20 style=3D"BORDER-TOP: medium none; BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; = BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0px; PADDING-TOP: 0px; = PADDING-LEFT: 0px; MARGIN: 0px 0px 0px 40px; BORDER-LEFT: medium none; = PADDING-RIGHT: 0px"> <DIV class=3Dgmail_extra> <DIV class=3Dgmail_quote> <DIV><SPAN=20 style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 14px; FONT-FAMILY: sans-serif; COLOR: = rgb(37,37,37); LINE-HEIGHT: 17px"><I>The=20 core Bitcoin network can scale to much higher transaction rates than = are seen=20 today, assuming that nodes in the network are primarily running on = high end=20 servers rather than desktops. = </I></SPAN></DIV></DIV></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV class=3Dgmail_extra> <DIV class=3Dgmail_quote> <DIV><SPAN=20 style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 14px; FONT-FAMILY: sans-serif; COLOR: rgb(37,37,37); = LINE-HEIGHT: 17px"><BR></SPAN></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=3D#252525 face=3Dsans-serif><SPAN style=3D"LINE-HEIGHT: = 17px">By=20 "much higher rates" I meant VISA scale and by "high end server" I meant = high end=20 by today's standards not tomorrows. There's a big difference between a=20 datacenter and a single server! </SPAN></FONT><SPAN=20 style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: sans-serif; COLOR: rgb(37,37,37); LINE-HEIGHT: = 17px">By=20 definition a single server is not a datacenter, although it would be=20 conventional to place it in one. But </SPAN><SPAN=20 style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: sans-serif; COLOR: rgb(37,37,37); LINE-HEIGHT: = 17px">even=20 with the most wildly optimistic growth imaginable, I couldn't foresee a = time=20 when you needed more than a single machine to keep up with the = transaction=20 stream. </SPAN></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=3D#252525 face=3Dsans-serif><SPAN=20 style=3D"LINE-HEIGHT: 17px"><BR></SPAN></FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=3D#252525 face=3Dsans-serif><SPAN style=3D"LINE-HEIGHT: = 17px">And=20 we're not going to get to VISA scale any time soon: I don't think I've = ever=20 argued we will. If it does happen it would presumably be decades away. = Again,=20 short of some currently unimagined killer app.</SPAN></FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=3D#252525 face=3Dsans-serif><SPAN=20 style=3D"LINE-HEIGHT: 17px"><BR></SPAN></FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=3D#252525 face=3Dsans-serif><SPAN style=3D"LINE-HEIGHT: = 17px">So I=20 don't believe I've ever argued this, and honestly I kinda feel people = are=20 putting words in my mouth.</SPAN></FONT></DIV></DIV></DIV></DIV> <P> <HR> -------------------------------------------------------------------------= -----<BR> <P> <HR> _______________________________________________<BR>Bitcoin-development = mailing=20 list<BR>Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net<BR>https://lists.source= forge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development<BR></DIV></DIV></DIV></DIV><= /DIV></DIV> <P> <HR> -------------------------------------------------------------------------= -----<BR> <P> <HR> _______________________________________________<BR>Bitcoin-development = mailing=20 list<BR>Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net<BR>https://lists.source= forge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development<BR></DIV></DIV></DIV></BODY>= </HTML> ------=_NextPart_000_0026_01D0A8D7.898F2880--