From: Luv Khemani <luvb@hotmail.com>
To: David Vorick <david.vorick@gmail.com>, Jared Lee Richardson
	<jaredr26@gmail.com>, Bitcoin Protocol Discussion
	<bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org>
Thread-Topic: [bitcoin-dev] Hard fork proposal from last week's meeting
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Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2017 07:11:21 +0000
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Subject: Re: [bitcoin-dev] Hard fork proposal from last week's meeting
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>> If home users are not running their own full nodes, then home users have=
 to trust and rely on other, more powerful nodes to represent them. Of cour=
se, the more powerful nodes, simply by nature of having more power, are goi=
ng to have different opinions and objectives from the users.

>I think you're conflating mining with node operation here.  Node users onl=
y power is to block the propagation of certain things.  Since miners also h=
ave a node endpoint, they can cut the node users out of the equation by lin=
king with eachother directly - something they already do out of practicalit=
y for propagation.  Node users do not have the power to arbitrate consensus=
, that is why we have blocks and PoW.

You are only looking at technical aspects and missing the political aspect.

Node users decide what a Bitcoin is. It matters not how much hash power is =
behind a inflationary supply chain fork, full nodes protect the user from t=
he change of any properties of Bitcoin which they do not agree with. The ab=
ility to retain this power for users is of prime importance and is arguably=
 what gives Bitcoin most of it's value. Any increase in the cost to run a f=
ull node is an increase in cost to maintain monetary sovereignty. The abili=
ty for a user to run a node is what keeps the miners honest and prevents th=
em from rewriting any of Bitcoin's rules.

If it's still difficult to grasp the above paragraph, ask yourself the foll=
owing questions,
- What makes Bitcoin uncensorable
- What gives confidence that the 21 million limit will be upheld
- What makes transactions irreversible
- If hashpower was king as you make it to be, why havn't miners making up m=
ajority hashrate who want bigger blocks been able to change the blocksize?

The market is not storing 10s of billions of dollars in Bitcoin despite all=
 it's risks because it is useful for everyday transactions, that is a solve=
d problem in every part of the world (Cash/Visa/etc..).

Having said that, i fully empathise with your view that increasing transact=
ion fees might allow competitors to gain marketshare for low value use case=
s. By all means, we should look into ways of solving the problem. But all t=
hese debates around blocksize is a total waste of time. Even if we fork to =
2MB, 5MB, 10MB. It is irrelevant in the larger picture, transaction capacit=
y will still be too low for global usage in the medium-long term. The addit=
ional capacity from blocksize increases are linear improvements with very l=
arge systemic costs compared with the userbase and usage which is growing e=
xponentially. Lightning potentially offers a couple or orders of magnitude =
of scaling and will make blocksize a non-issue for years to come. Even if i=
t fails to live up to the hype, you should not discount the market innovati=
ng solutions when there is money to be made.


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<html>
<head>
<meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html; charset=3Diso-8859-=
1">
<style type=3D"text/css" style=3D"display:none;"><!-- P {margin-top:0;margi=
n-bottom:0;} --></style>
</head>
<body dir=3D"ltr">
<div id=3D"divtagdefaultwrapper" style=3D"font-size:12pt;color:#000000;font=
-family:Calibri,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif;" dir=3D"ltr">
<p><br>
</p>
<div>
<div>
<div dir=3D"ltr" style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0);"><span style=3D"font-size:12=
.8px">&gt;&gt;&nbsp;</span><span style=3D"font-size:12.8px">If home users a=
re not running their own full nodes, then home users have to trust and rely=
 on other, more powerful nodes to represent them. Of
 course, the more powerful nodes, simply by nature of having more power, ar=
e going to have different opinions and objectives from the users.<br>
<br>
&gt;I think you're conflating mining with node operation here.&nbsp; Node u=
sers only power is to block the propagation of certain things.&nbsp; Since =
miners also have a node endpoint, they can cut the node users out of the eq=
uation by linking with eachother directly - something
 they already do out of practicality for propagation.&nbsp; Node users do n=
ot have the power to arbitrate consensus, that is why we have blocks and Po=
W.</span></div>
<div dir=3D"ltr" style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0);"><span style=3D"font-size:12=
.8px"><br>
</span></div>
<div dir=3D"ltr" style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0);"><span style=3D"font-family:=
 &quot;Comic Sans MS&quot;, fantasy, cursive; font-size: 10pt;">You are onl=
y looking at technical aspects and missing the political aspect.</span></di=
v>
<div dir=3D"ltr" style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0);"><span style=3D"font-family:=
 &quot;Comic Sans MS&quot;, fantasy, cursive; font-size: 10pt;"><br>
</span></div>
<div dir=3D"ltr" style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0);"><span style=3D"font-family:=
 &quot;Comic Sans MS&quot;, fantasy, cursive; font-size: 10pt;">Node users =
decide what a Bitcoin is. It matters not how much hash&nbsp;power is behind=
 a inflationary supply chain&nbsp;fork, full nodes protect
 the user from the change of any properties of Bitcoin which they do not ag=
ree with. The ability to retain this power for users is of prime importance=
 and is arguably what gives Bitcoin most of it's value. Any increase in the=
 cost to run a full node is an increase
 in cost to maintain monetary sovereignty. The ability for a user to run a =
node is what keeps the miners honest and prevents them from rewriting any o=
f Bitcoin's rules.</span><br>
</div>
<div dir=3D"ltr" style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0);"><span style=3D"font-family:=
 &quot;Comic Sans MS&quot;, fantasy, cursive; font-size: 10pt;"><br>
</span></div>
<div dir=3D"ltr" style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0);"><span style=3D"font-family:=
 &quot;Comic Sans MS&quot;, fantasy, cursive; font-size: 10pt;">If it's sti=
ll difficult to grasp the above paragraph, ask yourself the following quest=
ions,</span></div>
<div dir=3D"ltr" style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0);"><span style=3D"font-family:=
 &quot;Comic Sans MS&quot;, fantasy, cursive; font-size: 10pt;">- What make=
s Bitcoin uncensorable</span></div>
<div dir=3D"ltr" style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0);"><span style=3D"font-family:=
 &quot;Comic Sans MS&quot;, fantasy, cursive; font-size: 10pt;">- What give=
s confidence that the 21 million limit will be upheld</span></div>
<div dir=3D"ltr" style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0);"><span style=3D"font-family:=
 &quot;Comic Sans MS&quot;, fantasy, cursive; font-size: 10pt;">- What make=
s transactions irreversible</span></div>
<div dir=3D"ltr"><font face=3D"Comic Sans MS, fantasy, cursive"><span style=
=3D"font-size: 10pt;">- If hashpower was king as you make it to be, why
</span><span style=3D"font-size: 13.3333px;">havn't</span><span style=3D"fo=
nt-size: 10pt;">&nbsp;miners making up majority hashrate who want bigger bl=
ocks been able to change the blocksize?</span></font></div>
<div dir=3D"ltr" style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0);"><br>
</div>
<div dir=3D"ltr" style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0);"><font face=3D"Comic Sans MS=
, fantasy, cursive"><span style=3D"font-size: 13.3333px;">The market is not=
 storing 10s of billions of dollars in Bitcoin despite all it's risks&nbsp;=
because it is useful for everyday transactions,
 that is a solved problem in every part of the world (Cash/Visa/etc..).&nbs=
p;</span></font></div>
<div dir=3D"ltr" style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0);"><font face=3D"Comic Sans MS=
, fantasy, cursive"><span style=3D"font-size: 13.3333px;"><br>
</span></font></div>
<div dir=3D"ltr" style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0);"><font face=3D"Comic Sans MS=
, fantasy, cursive"><span style=3D"font-size: 13.3333px;">Having said that,=
 i fully empathise with your view that increasing transaction fees might al=
low competitors to gain marketshare for
 low value use cases. By all means, we should look into ways of&nbsp;solvin=
g the problem. But all these&nbsp;debates around blocksize is a total waste=
 of time. Even if we fork to 2MB, 5MB, 10MB. It is irrelevant in the larger=
 picture, transaction capacity will still
 be too low for global usage in the medium-long term. The additional capaci=
ty from blocksize increases are linear improvements with very large systemi=
c&nbsp;costs compared with the userbase and usage which is growing exponent=
ially. Lightning potentially offers a
 couple or orders of magnitude of scaling and will make blocksize a non-iss=
ue for years to come. Even if it fails to live up to the hype, you should n=
ot discount the market innovating solutions when there is money to be made.=
</span></font></div>
<div dir=3D"ltr" style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">
<div><br>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</body>
</html>

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