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 <A326C6D2-7C6E-42A2-93C9-DC7647BB09B6@voskuil.org>
Date: Tue, 02 Mar 2021 01:16:29 +0000
From: "Daniel Edgecumbe" <email@esotericnonsense.com>
To: "M.K. Safi via bitcoin-dev" <bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org>
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Subject: Re: [bitcoin-dev] Taproot NACK
Precedence: list

Any "transparency" in the blockchain, beyond that required for a partici=
pant to determine valid ownership, can only reasonably be thought of as =
a bug.

Today I spent approximately $5 at a chip shop in North London in cash. B=
esides the fact that I have voluntarily chosen to share this information=
, it is absolutely no concern of yourself or any other party that this t=
ransaction has occured.

Bitcoin is digital cash.

Daniel Edgecumbe | esotericnonsense
email@esotericnonsense.com | https://esotericnonsense.com

On Mon, Mar 1, 2021, at 22:37, Eric Voskuil via bitcoin-dev wrote:
> To be clear, is this a NACK because Taproot reduces =E2=80=9Ctranspare=
ncy=E2=80=9D=20
> (increases privacy) on the chain (=E2=80=9Cmaintaining consensus=E2=80=
=9D is obviously=20
> an argument against any protocol change, so that=E2=80=99s a red herri=
ng)?=20
>=20
> And is it your theory that only an =E2=80=9Chonest=E2=80=9D (statute a=
biding) person=20
> should have privacy, and not against the state, and/or that mixers are=
=20
> sufficient privacy?
>=20
> Personally, I=E2=80=99m not moved by such an argument. What do you thi=
nk is the=20
> value proposition of Bitcoin?
>=20
> e
>=20
> > On Mar 1, 2021, at 14:21, LORD HIS EXCELLENCY JAMES HRMH via bitcoin=
-dev <bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org> wrote:
> >=20
> > =EF=BB=BF=20
> > Good Afternoon,
> >=20
> > I am going to take tough terms with much of your reply and do apprec=
iate a courteous practice. Having previously made public disclosure of m=
y affiliation with Jambler.io it seems sufficient to disclose my affilia=
tion through the link in my email signature block.
> >=20
> > My concern is not increased privacy it is maintaining consensus valu=
es and the transparency of the blockchain wherein all transactions are p=
ublished in an immutable record and that forbids the redaction of inform=
ation by any obfuscation. A separate concern is the availability of a pr=
ivacy suitable for cash should a Bitcoin user desire and especially with=
out disturbing the existing consensus.
> >=20
> > The use of a Bitcoin Mixer is to enable standard equivalent privacy.=
 As you may experience yourself, you do not allow people to follow you a=
round looking in your purse, suppose you are dealing entirely with cash,=
 and to see where and how much you fill it up, and where you spend. None=
theless, for an honest person, their wallet is available for government =
audit as are their financial affairs. This is consistent with the existi=
ng operation of consensus.
> >=20
> > My full email signature block is a disclosure where I have some affi=
liation with the referenced website being that it carries at least some =
information that I have provided or that in some way I am associated per=
haps only making use of their services. For example, I hardly make a pro=
fit from LinkedIn just my information is there. Also, I have made previo=
us public disclosure of the affiliation. Bitcoin Mixer 2.0 is a partner =
mixer run by Jambler.io wherein I receive a service referral fee and am =
not in receipt of any part of the process transaction. The operation blo=
ck diagram provided by Jambler.io is provided here and attached.
> > <ip.bitcointalk.org.png>
> >=20
> > [ip.bitcointalk.org.png]-Operation of Jambler.io partner mixer
> > https://ip.bitcointalk.org/?u=3Dhttps%3A%2F%2Fjambler.io%2Fimages%2F=
scheme-1.png&t=3D622&c=3DgTi7r1cfh-yynw
> > from this thread  https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=3D5267588
> >=20
> >=20
> > The installation script provided by Jambler.io that is the basis of =
my referral website is also publicly published,
> > https://github.com/jambler-io/bitcoin-mixer
> >=20
> > The disclosure for the partner program is available from Jambler.io =
however and is made prominently on my referral website. While it may see=
m lucrative at first I insist all partner profits are reportable on your=
 personal income.
> > https://jambler.io/become-partner.php
> >=20
> > I am certainly better than confident that you appreciate the differe=
nce between an open and transparent blockchain and the ability of the us=
er to not reveal details of the content of their wallet publicly.
> >=20
> > If further clarification is required may I suggest you pay a token a=
nd mix some Bitcoin wherein our discussion may then have some point of r=
eference.
> >=20
> > KING JAMES HRMH
> > Great British Empire
> >=20
> > Regards,
> > The Australian
> > LORD HIS EXCELLENCY JAMES HRMH (& HMRH)
> > of Hougun Manor & Glencoe & British Empire
> > MR. Damian A. James Williamson
> > Wills
> >=20
> > et al.
> >=20
> > =20
> > Willtech
> > www.willtech.com.au
> > www.go-overt.com
> > and other projects
> > =20
> > earn.com/willtech
> > linkedin.com/in/damianwilliamson
> >=20
> >=20
> > m. 0487135719
> > f. +61261470192
> >=20
> >=20
> > This email does not constitute a general advice. Please disregard th=
is email if misdelivered.
> > *From:* Ariel Lorenzo-Luaces <arielluaces@gmail.com>
> > *Sent:* Monday, 1 March 2021 12:07 AM
> > *To:* LORD HIS EXCELLENCY JAMES HRMH <willtech@live.com.au>; Bitcoin=
 Protocol Discussion <bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org>
> > *Subject:* Re: [bitcoin-dev] Taproot NACK=20
> > =20
> > Hello LORD HIS EXCELLENCY JAMES HRMH
> >=20
> > I find a striking dichotomy between your concern of increased privac=
y in bitcoin and your link to a bitcoin mixer in your signature www.go-o=
vert.com
> >=20
> > At first your concerns seemed genuine but after seeing your promotio=
n of a bitcoin mixer I'm thinking your concerns may be more profit motiv=
ated? I can't tell since you failed to disclose your relationship with t=
he mixer.
> >=20
> > Could you please clarify your association with the bitcoin mixer and=
 moving forward could you please always do proper disclosure any time yo=
u're publically talking about bitcoin transaction privacy. It's only fai=
r to do so as to not mislead people in an attempt to manipulate at worst=
 and just a courteous practice at best.
> >=20
> > Cheers
> > Ariel Lorenzo-Luaces
> > On Feb 28, 2021, at 4:36 AM, LORD HIS EXCELLENCY JAMES HRMH via bitc=
oin-dev <bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org> wrote:=20
> >> Good Evening,=20
> >>=20
> >> Thank-you for your advice   @JeremyRubin <https://twitter.com/Jerem=
yRubin>  on the basis you advise, "Taproot does not enable monero-like p=
rivacy features", I am prepred to withdraw my NACK notably that the exis=
ting feeatures of Bitcoin MUST be maintained, and whereby the UTXO of a =
transaction is identifiable, the PayTo Address, and the amount all witho=
ut any obfuscation.=20
> >>=20
> >> Lightning does not really provide obfuscation, it provides a result=
 of a subset of transactions although the operation of the channel is ob=
servable to the parties.=20
> >>=20
> >> The reports I were reading concerning the supposed operation of Tap=
root published in a public media channel may have been speculation or mi=
sinformation nonetheless it is prudent to conditionally reply as you see=
 that I have. It is important not to allow things to slip through the cr=
acks. As you may believe may astute reviewers could make a full disclosu=
re to this list it is not to be expected.=20
> >>=20
> >> KING JAMES HRMH=20
> >> Great British Empire=20
> >>=20
> >> Regards,=20
> >> The Australian=20
> >> LORD HIS EXCELLENCY JAMES HRMH (& HMRH)=20
> >> of Hougun Manor & Glencoe & British Empire=20
> >> MR. Damian A. James Williamson=20
> >> Wills=20
> >>=20
> >> et al.=20
> >>=20
> >>  =20
> >> Willtech=20
> >> www.willtech.com.au=20
> >> www.go-overt.com=20
> >> and other projects=20
> >>  =20
> >> earn.com/willtech=20
> >> linkedin.com/in/damianwilliamson=20
> >>=20
> >>=20
> >> m. 0487135719=20
> >> f. +61261470192=20
> >>=20
> >>=20
> >> This email does not constitute a general advice. Please disregard t=
his email if misdelivered.=20
> >> *From:* Jeremy <jlrubin@mit.edu>
> >> *Sent:* Sunday, 28 February 2021 3:14 AM
> >> *To:* LORD HIS EXCELLENCY JAMES HRMH <willtech@live.com.au>; Bitcoi=
n Protocol Discussion <bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org>
> >> *Subject:* Re: [bitcoin-dev] Taproot NACK=20
> >>  =20
> >> I have good news for you: Taproot does not enable monero-like priva=
cy features any moreso than already exist in Bitcoin today. At its core,=
 taproot is a way to make transactions with embedded smart contracts les=
s expensive, done so in a manner that may marginally improve privacy dep=
endent on user behavior (but not in the monero-like way you mention). Fo=
r example, it makes it possible for lightning channels to look structura=
lly similar to single key wallets, but it does nothing inherently to obf=
uscate the transaction graph as in monero.=20
> >>=20
> >> Such "monero-like" transaction graph obfuscation may already exist =
in Bitcoin via other techniques (coinjoin, payjoin, coinswap, lightning,=
 etc) with or without Taproot, so the point is further moot.=20
> >>=20
> >> Do you have a source on your reporting?=20
> >>=20
> >> You may wish to rescind your nack.=20
> >>=20
> >>=20
> >> --=20
> >> @JeremyRubin <https://twitter.com/JeremyRubin>  <https://twitter.co=
m/JeremyRubin>
> >>=20
> >>=20
> >> On Sat, Feb 27, 2021 at 5:46 AM LORD HIS EXCELLENCY JAMES HRMH via =
bitcoin-dev < bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org> wrote:=20
> >>> Good Afternoon,=20
> >>>=20
> >>> It has been reported that Taproot will enable some Monero like fea=
tures including the ability to hide transactions.=20
> >>>=20
> >>> If that is the case I offer a full NACK and let me explain.=20
> >>>=20
> >>> A part of the benefit of using Bitcoin is its honesty. The full tr=
ansaction is published on the blockchain. If that were to change so that=
 transactions may be obfuscated from scrutiny then any government would =
have unlimited impetus to ban Bitcoin, and speculation has that is the r=
eason India has been reported to have banned cryptocurrencies already.=20=

> >>>=20
> >>> I am in support of the expanded use case of Bitcoin without harmin=
g the established robust fairness and equal equity offered. The core fun=
ctionality of Bitcoin, its values, must remain unaltered.=20
> >>>=20
> >>> KING JAMES HRMH=20
> >>> Great British Empire=20
> >>>=20
> >>> Regards,=20
> >>> The Australian=20
> >>> LORD HIS EXCELLENCY JAMES HRMH (& HMRH)=20
> >>> of Hougun Manor & Glencoe & British Empire=20
> >>> MR. Damian A. James Williamson=20
> >>> Wills=20
> >>>=20
> >>> et al.=20
> >>>=20
> >>>  =20
> >>> Willtech=20
> >>> www.willtech.com.au=20
> >>> www.go-overt.com=20
> >>> and other projects=20
> >>>  =20
> >>> earn.com/willtech=20
> >>> linkedin.com/in/damianwilliamson=20
> >>>=20
> >>>=20
> >>> m. 0487135719=20
> >>> f. +61261470192=20
> >>>=20
> >>>=20
> >>> This email does not constitute a general advice. Please disregard =
this email if misdelivered.=20
> >>> _______________________________________________=20
> >>> bitcoin-dev mailing list=20
> >>> bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org=20
> >>> https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev=20
> >> =20
> >> bitcoin-dev mailing list
> >> bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org
> >> https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev
> > <ip.bitcointalk.org.png>
> > _______________________________________________
> > bitcoin-dev mailing list
> > bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org
> > https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev
> _______________________________________________
> bitcoin-dev mailing list
> bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org
> https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev
>