Delivery-date: Fri, 03 Oct 2025 09:33:17 -0700 Received: from mail-oi1-f187.google.com ([209.85.167.187]) by mail.fairlystable.org with esmtps (TLS1.3) tls TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (Exim 4.94.2) (envelope-from ) id 1v4iia-0005xk-O7 for bitcoindev@gnusha.org; Fri, 03 Oct 2025 09:33:16 -0700 Received: by mail-oi1-f187.google.com with SMTP id 5614622812f47-43f53560e8fsf2132858b6e.2 for ; Fri, 03 Oct 2025 09:33:16 -0700 (PDT) ARC-Seal: i=2; a=rsa-sha256; t=1759509191; cv=pass; d=google.com; s=arc-20240605; b=XG87yGYsFSWHBRLUOXnqFXAOKYypDTcwOF0cTynsWddRzD2bKMF6EPV4ElP4YcDxx1 17hT3J3nGtySfk2B4eAPSRcSxLpGRhSkA73hihz8gp6WAUBhmc9JRjYuv7zqTkzkyQBC YFf//XmUer+WWLBZzI47EK2Fn6bXpkDbW8Fpg1KJGzbdLIwEFnqI3XgPu2kh2IsbhCyC KmdpvCj65hJBow9xgxo4pW5Gn9Df+dk85Ow8mN7Tp+npenJT0T5dRUv5eW4wjuJ3Als2 x1Q6dXPXbFe8zREzGC1rmBBhB4lXhzkrjvPiaMoNnboBDymOIdHJxXBAsOgCpPZ3BLjT 4oAA== ARC-Message-Signature: i=2; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=google.com; s=arc-20240605; h=list-unsubscribe:list-subscribe:list-archive:list-help:list-post :list-id:mailing-list:precedence:in-reply-to:content-disposition :mime-version:references:message-id:subject:cc:to:from:date :feedback-id:sender:dkim-signature; bh=3Z2TzLMirGT+rmUmf7v7BGvIu9Q9ti5jPPb7BBjsD/Q=; fh=N9MRFoDGPfIhjPRlR2Zh0OvXUxtIMjmVg2krS8UCb9U=; b=RMRFjPzXZhPzSW+iWFfyWK/t1OSfQ7sCJXW4fJa/e0/mZNmc5kNULTf1Ph3940vLp6 ImBJMJs+ewpMEjD0fbMoy8Yddeoc5bwPZ1tvr6BK2LRtIPl7QSWWNixFUsBRx6m4CZAm BMb10BQFL1+4y/7Ert2slNHJrefEN4S5wbHLxB9Etuiwc2YimtulY0ObxnFljfjKeRqs mLgni0jf4QWhtIhu15BesdsrSIhoYCNeJZuaKbp5j2Uc+DItYbYyagGHRGOm72zHCiR2 3fE9iaSUPOCcnl0zzHdM7Ai20ilHZxjFslEHwjNMmgL4J72AhSffLbEk58EF/aFR2wK2 FkJQ==; darn=gnusha.org ARC-Authentication-Results: i=2; gmr-mx.google.com; dkim=pass header.i=@messagingengine.com header.s=fm2 header.b=c5InfNrk; spf=pass (google.com: domain of pete@petertodd.org designates 103.168.172.154 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=pete@petertodd.org DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=20230601; t=1759509191; x=1760113991; darn=gnusha.org; h=list-unsubscribe:list-subscribe:list-archive:list-help:list-post :list-id:mailing-list:precedence:x-original-authentication-results :x-original-sender:in-reply-to:content-disposition:mime-version :references:message-id:subject:cc:to:from:date:feedback-id:sender :from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=3Z2TzLMirGT+rmUmf7v7BGvIu9Q9ti5jPPb7BBjsD/Q=; b=oIJd/klnpQ5UcjiAFMkTlIinOwbDuwxpXogwlMw3XA9fm4n9bEfyIZ4qdPj809aeWa wglMrfT6EXcqoDWQVVgma4bDkvTM+MwVUW6G9V7ZGlGFqV/vmZRoJp7/mm8Pj7cSbBZe t5ZNIYhs/RSvp2Womt9yo00CRWYlW3eAjpbqWz1d1CNFJ5U0e05+GdOO9pSUKExhS7Kl 38AMsj+lbBidTCaqeNMugnSl8jjNfSA9OLN8uxLaCCPwQQuHAS2nWNRMPtM3nHkk3KM8 PjJhhwUMgBceK7rtPz5IL7gqccsLnGEelEhPlAXmR9FdoAglsyKggDcHmO8qhjQsEjHq z/sg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20230601; t=1759509191; x=1760113991; h=list-unsubscribe:list-subscribe:list-archive:list-help:list-post :list-id:mailing-list:precedence:x-original-authentication-results :x-original-sender:in-reply-to:content-disposition:mime-version :references:message-id:subject:cc:to:from:date:feedback-id :x-beenthere:x-gm-message-state:sender:from:to:cc:subject:date :message-id:reply-to; bh=3Z2TzLMirGT+rmUmf7v7BGvIu9Q9ti5jPPb7BBjsD/Q=; b=oBfCiiWil8iuVsWblLJSG2Yev/fEQNWqOyYfKDkSP+5IL8MFs6DEfpqX59HL0k2taW GkE61mqeHUS9zy51uFMjPzL20JgQ8bTcgvZipsG9ZgUpKDEv39oJxX/fWnFvAF5MjDDl 5gqyetKC5Pc8C8VUnUbFP243SlU96cq41Li4GTl08VDaRu4VB8hsnNlAwVB3op2xc/pR UwSjWfZKGi5FaSTc05ClvQAU86scXqOpilzXFuCdE8SN00szJmDmPAL2mOMHAzIgo31V e2E6EmyBbg6HrY4vBzO/aVwtlDXIhg8M2pcqs0SoTwm2qtUv8DDIr7OVMR+v7mYx2KwA rf4w== Sender: bitcoindev@googlegroups.com X-Forwarded-Encrypted: i=2; AJvYcCUrQjATYtpKLWvHEYsoTUZprHY7oG0q/L6R7JokeAION3esvkHLrLxkioAE2LwipSd+79MdlFCgLEqF@gnusha.org X-Gm-Message-State: AOJu0YzIetSbJz3au/AO69m5AZGFMGm3wgLgdWo+JsCX+0bGg+fApvbp u+JFVTnYKjbeXTcJJ5y3ig1ONoShLwHXzGh0RockkLHBaOE9FC/l7IGI X-Google-Smtp-Source: AGHT+IHRaMkUIDcTTncHIoCF1By87Hgo8ato1zHed+nF/sGlulHX5lGW6Jv31ri1fCVV8ruNES+amg== X-Received: by 2002:a05:6808:158a:b0:43f:5e4b:42ae with SMTP id 5614622812f47-43fc176d7f0mr2048400b6e.17.1759509190739; Fri, 03 Oct 2025 09:33:10 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: bitcoindev@googlegroups.com; h="ARHlJd5qr3amLv1J1Tz7DvebN40U4xT3ddW4kOKW8ol1pRQ91g==" Received: by 2002:a05:6820:638d:b0:649:be10:2b2f with SMTP id 006d021491bc7-64e012b78cels1155605eaf.2.-pod-prod-05-us; Fri, 03 Oct 2025 09:33:06 -0700 (PDT) X-Received: by 2002:a05:6808:3204:b0:43f:63be:3f65 with SMTP id 5614622812f47-43fc1737311mr1870119b6e.7.1759509186703; Fri, 03 Oct 2025 09:33:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 2002:a05:620a:a102:b0:851:28d8:13e with SMTP id af79cd13be357-877bbf10b61ms85a; Fri, 3 Oct 2025 09:12:34 -0700 (PDT) X-Received: by 2002:a05:6122:32c5:b0:54a:92f1:f9e4 with SMTP id 71dfb90a1353d-5524ea0edb6mr1330175e0c.9.1759507953795; Fri, 03 Oct 2025 09:12:33 -0700 (PDT) ARC-Seal: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; t=1759507953; cv=none; d=google.com; s=arc-20240605; b=XXEZRRfT7Ghc8eK1OnFUbpCB6R8shrxcXckLLKUcKtda87zbyzxZkF+IAxPNgHxLPJ t8SsUX2twmhd+5lIBMCWPSDKYHJfXt1+VOt3X73JYulGD9QFr57yY4Kw423mDJU6FFMS 64tN83571XbU1QvKXM4X5absnrqG9Hqe6fPFs9aPe4/aUbFvHYo1DDlH6bsQy3WrUHGK aGZfvSjipTS1hx7ftT4oR38l5wbzdPsTLVr8AHLsUSTAeFHnWPqoahV56XaM81B7r9xO gzLJhg3oMNcKkZwDLtVMtd5RanE6ZM74h5unQq6DWBlslLJF7HC5GSyiP4X20Vq2RkZM C4sA== ARC-Message-Signature: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=google.com; s=arc-20240605; h=in-reply-to:content-disposition:mime-version:references:message-id :subject:cc:to:from:date:feedback-id:dkim-signature; bh=oJZA8RBRO7G31sDM+B5/wOZIQ3Tipnrv8vZGILS/wV4=; fh=nCPmCOgX3/X/Z0VPSebX/uU207EnKi06nB6FSH4r8nU=; b=dtzkNpQaZsTGHOAdvPOWDZhe5zvPppobGEYUC14iVMNhp2r29nK5Mc17PFmCKE9LV/ RDq85uH/L7YeAhmddMZ6O5A9oziiZhhXy/0POBPwtpU3SYw31eefgZP0JQGCYCa3I9qP Vde3n7IiEv7vJai58FykD8vEiJinpNtDEcngSDAy4WaI5XlaxS7MMirL65CTfxwPTZwn jp7pxM6OMBg4M83bfXOHeWe211QfFz1bfNWHF2W2tLD0fLKfHDwaKPjhCYTsvKeZIxDl TTYTtIwAW7OKHLwsUJOGP+pvIidQoAPCXF1QzIjhq2SBGf73tMjAJLLIBB68RvVnhyq7 AIsA==; dara=google.com ARC-Authentication-Results: i=1; gmr-mx.google.com; dkim=pass header.i=@messagingengine.com header.s=fm2 header.b=c5InfNrk; spf=pass (google.com: domain of pete@petertodd.org designates 103.168.172.154 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=pete@petertodd.org Received: from fhigh-a3-smtp.messagingengine.com (fhigh-a3-smtp.messagingengine.com. [103.168.172.154]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id 71dfb90a1353d-5523ce22368si246387e0c.1.2025.10.03.09.12.33 for (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 bits=256/256); Fri, 03 Oct 2025 09:12:33 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of pete@petertodd.org designates 103.168.172.154 as permitted sender) client-ip=103.168.172.154; Received: from phl-compute-03.internal (phl-compute-03.internal [10.202.2.43]) by mailfhigh.phl.internal (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7A4A6140017D; Fri, 3 Oct 2025 12:12:33 -0400 (EDT) Received: from phl-mailfrontend-01 ([10.202.2.162]) by phl-compute-03.internal (MEProxy); Fri, 03 Oct 2025 12:12:33 -0400 X-ME-Sender: X-ME-Received: X-ME-Proxy-Cause: gggruggvucftvghtrhhoucdtuddrgeeffedrtdeggdekleefhecutefuodetggdotefrod ftvfcurfhrohhfihhlvgemucfhrghsthforghilhdpuffrtefokffrpgfnqfghnecuuegr ihhlohhuthemuceftddtnecusecvtfgvtghiphhivghnthhsucdlqddutddtmdenucfjug hrpeffhffvvefukfhfgggtuggjsehgtderredttddvnecuhfhrohhmpefrvghtvghrucfv ohguugcuoehpvghtvgesphgvthgvrhhtohguugdrohhrgheqnecuggftrfgrthhtvghrnh epledvleelffdtudekudffjefgfeejueehieelfedtgfetudetgeegveeutefhjedtnecu ffhomhgrihhnpehpvghtvghrthhouggurdhorhhgnecuvehluhhsthgvrhfuihiivgeptd enucfrrghrrghmpehmrghilhhfrhhomhepphgvthgvsehpvghtvghrthhouggurdhorhhg pdhnsggprhgtphhtthhopedvpdhmohguvgepshhmthhpohhuthdprhgtphhtthhopegsih httghoihhnuggvvhesghhoohhglhgvghhrohhuphhsrdgtohhmpdhrtghpthhtohepvghr ihhksehqfedvrdgtohhm X-ME-Proxy: Feedback-ID: i525146e8:Fastmail Received: by mail.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTPA; Fri, 3 Oct 2025 12:12:32 -0400 (EDT) Received: by localhost (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 09FE29FC9B; Fri, 3 Oct 2025 16:12:27 +0000 (UTC) Date: Fri, 3 Oct 2025 16:12:27 +0000 From: Peter Todd To: Erik Aronesty Cc: bitcoindev@googlegroups.com Subject: Re: [bitcoindev] OP_CHECKUTXOSETHASH idea Message-ID: References: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha512; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="1DWaoic6QFm8QfWd" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: X-Original-Sender: pete@petertodd.org X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; dkim=pass header.i=@messagingengine.com header.s=fm2 header.b=c5InfNrk; spf=pass (google.com: domain of pete@petertodd.org designates 103.168.172.154 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=pete@petertodd.org Precedence: list Mailing-list: list bitcoindev@googlegroups.com; contact bitcoindev+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 786775582512 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: , List-Unsubscribe: , X-Spam-Score: -0.8 (/) --1DWaoic6QFm8QfWd Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Disposition: inline On Mon, Sep 29, 2025 at 05:09:15PM -0700, Erik Aronesty wrote: > A soft fork could introduce a new opcode, `OP_CHECKUTXOSETHASH`, allowing > miners to optionally commit a deterministic hash of the current UTXO set > into a block. If present, all nodes must verify its correctness or reject > the block; if absent, the block is still valid. Old nodes treat the opcode > as unspendable, so backward compatibility is preserved. > > Because computing the full UTXO root is costly, this makes each checkpoint > intentionally expensive to produce, ensuring that miners will only include > them when compensated with sufficient fees. Additionally, it could be > limited to one per block. No, it's costly for everyone to compute: everyone needs to recompute this to validate that the block is valid. Anyway, just as an aside, if you really need to do something like this, make the commitment be computable in advance by using a UTXO set root from the *prior* interval, to give nodes plenty of time to compute it. I outlined this approach before in the form of delayed txo commitments: https://petertodd.org/2016/delayed-txo-commitments -- https://petertodd.org 'peter'[:-1]@petertodd.org -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Bitcoin Development Mailing List" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to bitcoindev+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To view this discussion visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/bitcoindev/aN_16-lBQzY5K9XL%40petertodd.org. --1DWaoic6QFm8QfWd Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQIzBAEBCgAdFiEE0RcYcKRzsEwFZ3N5Lly11TVRLzcFAmjf9ewACgkQLly11TVR Lzfyuw/+ODZKx3PHEXQ2dW2q0yX/Fkjru4JVN9uzIMJArV/lu0J/JB0GN+9zLQV+ PqggFhCmbBShsEhe2OUKkDpeyi247qcdLEN3NFxgyTbYfsMs2ZeLexVrWXwZQ2DF IPl/ZJlKjeNdmKQrNix5K2phVrDDdLJeSczNcPTQ+Nq+heBBfGmoGmwrJCXIDmUi 9MuL3XCdepEzKZZpbxkM+1AlS/4tQY945Yeh1g4aQtEA2TRmNJgprdItznfLnxUD Dzfeh9tD9Q2/7J0RfA1ALwfWpdrh5or3CnlDbz9ZVFSHHclE8TclLUn4ZWe8TUu8 w/FJB+LK/xrqu8IpXQzxuDoZDIPCYcJao4UroPOKp09ClVgugm2zhGUqDU7Fv7n6 bLuX2wUgmEPXZHPua+KWDbuSYWnrzEsRiTLOMp8Z4uivYgDhIhTl+MspiIbFBPSs 1gpnnQ1qopl7l8bGO7Dol5l44tGL2ueWEfts4xjtEXkZIg5XVfFUIoOiDzmXEhUx iJZvmTqk333Rx92u5862+IZcxuXiCUvQmjU6N14mIU4xQXW64J33MBeqaO2igQZ3 c7MV1nPV23nRd5TBWIJ9MNqiavrWeunWU8NeOUYUICrMuugRiHcakBGwtuaW+GP3 TRotb0bZfT9Btt0aSUKD5UIQ8rzahuyD75ZyeYcRtuDhgmH4jFw= =bTy1 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --1DWaoic6QFm8QfWd--