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From: Eric Lombrozo <elombrozo@gmail.com>
In-Reply-To: <42BF7FEB-320F-43BE-B3D9-1D76CB8B9975@gmail.com>
Date: Thu, 23 Jul 2015 17:04:07 -0700
Message-Id: <D472C05D-7164-4ED1-B571-94415AD8E60F@gmail.com>
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To: Benedict Chan <bencxr@fragnetics.com>
Cc: bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org
Subject: Re: [bitcoin-dev] Bitcoin Core and hard forks
Precedence: list


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I should also add that I think those who claim that fee pressure will =
scare away users and break the industry are *seriously* underestimating =
human ingenuity in the face of a challenge. We can do this - we can =
overcome this obstacle=E2=80=A6we can find good solutions to a fee =
market. Unless someone can come up with another way to pay for the =
operation of the network, we NEED to do this. What makes anyone think it =
will be easier to do later rather than now? The longer we wait, the =
lower block rewards get, the larger the deployed infrastructure, the =
larger our userbase, the HARDER it will be to solve it. We should solve =
it now - we will be much better off for it=E2=80=A6and so will our =
users.


> On Jul 23, 2015, at 4:57 PM, Eric Lombrozo <elombrozo@gmail.com> =
wrote:
>=20
>=20
>> On Jul 23, 2015, at 4:42 PM, Benedict Chan <bencxr@fragnetics.com =
<mailto:bencxr@fragnetics.com>> wrote:
>>=20
>> Scaling the network will come in the form of a combination of many
>> optimizations. Just because we do not know for sure how to eventually
>> serve 7 billion people does not mean we should make decisions on
>> global validation that impact our ability to serve the current set of
>> users.
>=20
> Agreed. But I believe the economic and security arguments I gave =
regarding fees and incentives still hold and are largely separate from =
the scalability issue. Please correct me if I overlooked something.
>=20
>=20
>> Also, blocking a change because it's "more important to address =
issues
>> such as..." other improvements will further slow down the discussion.
>> I believe an increase will not prevent the development of other
>> improvements that we need - in contrast, the sooner we can get over
>> the limit (which, as you agree, needs to be changed at some point),
>> the sooner we can get back to work.
>=20
> An increase in block size at this time will exacerbate security =
concerns around nodes relying on other nodes to validate (particularly =
miners and wallets). It=E2=80=99s not really a matter of having limited =
developer resources that need to be budgeted, as you seem to suggest.
>=20
> Regarding developments on properly handling fees, there must exist the =
economic need for it before there=E2=80=99s an earnest effort to solve =
it. Increasing the block size right now will, in all likelihood, delay =
this effort. I=E2=80=99d much prefer to first let the fee market evolve =
because it=E2=80=99s a crucial component to the protocol=E2=80=99s =
design and its security model=E2=80=A6and so we can get a better sense =
for fee economics. Then we might be able to figure out better approaches =
to block size changes in the future that makes sense =
economically=E2=80=A6perhaps with mechanisms that can dynamically adjust =
it to reflect resource availability and network load.


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<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html =
charset=3Dutf-8"></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" =
class=3D"">I should also add that I think those who claim that fee =
pressure will scare away users and break the industry are *seriously* =
underestimating human ingenuity in the face of a challenge. We can do =
this - we can overcome this obstacle=E2=80=A6we can find good solutions =
to a fee market. Unless someone can come up with another way to pay for =
the operation of the network, we NEED to do this. What makes anyone =
think it will be easier to do later rather than now? The longer we wait, =
the lower block rewards get, the larger the deployed infrastructure, the =
larger our userbase, the HARDER it will be to solve it. We should solve =
it now - we will be much better off for it=E2=80=A6and so will our =
users.<div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""><div><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div class=3D"">On =
Jul 23, 2015, at 4:57 PM, Eric Lombrozo &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:elombrozo@gmail.com" class=3D"">elombrozo@gmail.com</a>&gt;=
 wrote:</div><br class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=3D""><meta=
 http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html charset=3Dutf-8" =
class=3D""><div style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: =
space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" class=3D""><br =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div =
class=3D"">On Jul 23, 2015, at 4:42 PM, Benedict Chan &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:bencxr@fragnetics.com" =
class=3D"">bencxr@fragnetics.com</a>&gt; wrote:</div><br =
class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
line-height: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; =
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: =
0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; float: none; display: inline =
!important;" class=3D"">Scaling the network will come in the form of a =
combination of many</span><br style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; =
font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: =
normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: auto; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: =
0px;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; =
font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; =
letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: =
start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; float: =
none; display: inline !important;" class=3D"">optimizations. Just =
because we do not know for sure how to eventually</span><br =
style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
line-height: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; =
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: =
0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
line-height: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; =
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: =
0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; float: none; display: inline =
!important;" class=3D"">serve 7 billion people does not mean we should =
make decisions on</span><br style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: =
12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; =
letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: =
start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; =
font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; =
letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: =
start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; float: =
none; display: inline !important;" class=3D"">global validation that =
impact our ability to serve the current set of</span><br =
style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
line-height: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; =
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: =
0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
line-height: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; =
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: =
0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; float: none; display: inline =
!important;" class=3D"">users.</span><br style=3D"font-family: =
Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; =
font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; =
orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: =
none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=3D""></div></blockquote><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div>Agreed. But I believe the economic and =
security arguments I gave regarding fees and incentives still hold and =
are largely separate from the scalability issue. Please correct me if I =
overlooked something.</div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><br class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; =
font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; =
letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: =
start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; float: =
none; display: inline !important;" class=3D"">Also, blocking a change =
because it's "more important to address issues</span><br =
style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
line-height: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; =
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: =
0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
line-height: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; =
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: =
0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; float: none; display: inline =
!important;" class=3D"">such as..." other improvements will further slow =
down the discussion.</span><br style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; =
font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: =
normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: auto; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: =
0px;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; =
font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; =
letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: =
start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; float: =
none; display: inline !important;" class=3D"">I believe an increase will =
not prevent the development of other</span><br style=3D"font-family: =
Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; =
font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; =
orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: =
none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-family: =
Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; =
font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; =
orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: =
none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; float: none; display: inline =
!important;" class=3D"">improvements that we need - in contrast, the =
sooner we can get over</span><br style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; =
font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: =
normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: auto; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: =
0px;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; =
font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; =
letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: =
start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; float: =
none; display: inline !important;" class=3D"">the limit (which, as you =
agree, needs to be changed at some point),</span><br style=3D"font-family:=
 Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; =
font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; =
orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: =
none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-family: =
Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; =
font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; =
orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: =
none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; float: none; display: inline =
!important;" class=3D"">the sooner we can get back to work.</span><br =
style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
line-height: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; =
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: =
0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" =
class=3D""></div></blockquote></div><br class=3D""><div class=3D"">An =
increase in block size at this time will exacerbate security concerns =
around nodes relying on other nodes to validate (particularly miners and =
wallets). It=E2=80=99s not really a matter of having limited developer =
resources that need to be budgeted, as you seem to suggest.</div><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">Regarding developments =
on properly handling fees, there must exist the economic need for it =
before there=E2=80=99s an earnest effort to solve it. Increasing the =
block size right now will, in all likelihood, delay this effort. I=E2=80=99=
d much prefer to first let the fee market evolve because it=E2=80=99s a =
crucial component to the protocol=E2=80=99s design and its security =
model=E2=80=A6and so we can get a better sense for fee economics. Then =
we might be able to figure out better approaches to block size changes =
in the future that makes sense economically=E2=80=A6perhaps with =
mechanisms that can dynamically adjust it to reflect resource =
availability and network load.</div></div></div></blockquote></div><br =
class=3D""></div></body></html>=

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