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From: Richard Moore <me@ricmoo.com>
In-Reply-To: <CALgxB7uvtKCNM-nH+aqqPa4KNf5O6Gx4GmgZY7Oq8=A24wCrfA@mail.gmail.com>
Date: Tue, 30 Jun 2015 12:03:02 -0400
Message-Id: <8F54D4D6-A2FE-4F20-9927-712187B2B03A@ricmoo.com>
References: <CALgxB7uvtKCNM-nH+aqqPa4KNf5O6Gx4GmgZY7Oq8=A24wCrfA@mail.gmail.com>
To: Michael Naber <mickeybob@gmail.com>
Cc: bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org
Subject: Re: [bitcoin-dev] Block size increase oppositionists: please
	clearly define what you need done to increase block size to a
	static 8MB, and help do it
Precedence: list


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I=E2=80=99m not planning to take a firm stance against or for, but one =
problem with your analogy is that airplanes [currently] are not elastic =
(until we get TARDIS technology, or semi-TARDIS-like technology); they =
take up space and resources proportional to their capacity.

It is not the block size that is increasing, it is the *maximum* block =
size=E2=80=A6 So, it=E2=80=99s more like saying the *maximum* airplane =
size is increasing, which I think may be somewhat true (although, I =
agree, probably not exponentially). It would be more like an airplane =
whose capacity was doubling every two years, but would shrink when that =
extra capacity was not needed and only consume the maintenance, fuel, et =
cetera needed for its current size.

My semi-firm-ish stance is that kicking the can down the road with a =
static increase is less better. We can always soft-fork the limit down =
if the *actual* block size is growing too fast. When (and/or if) we need =
to. I also think 8MB is a rather large jump, for either static or =
dynamic.

*shrug*

RicMoo


> On Jun 30, 2015, at 11:34 AM, Michael Naber <mickeybob@gmail.com> =
wrote:
>=20
> As you know I'm trying to lobby for a block size increase to a static =
8MB.=20
>=20
> I'm happy to try to get the testing done that people want done for =
this, but I think the real crux of this issue is that we need to get =
consensus that we intend to continually push the block size upward as =
bounded only by technology.
>=20
> Imagine an engineer (Gavin) at Boeing (Bitcoin Core) said he was going =
to build an airplane (block) that was going to move 8x as many people =
(transactions) as today=E2=80=99s planes (blocks), all while costing =
about the same amount to operate. Imagine he then went on to tell you =
that he expects to double the plane=E2=80=99s (block's) capacity every =
two years!=20
>=20
> Without full planes (blocks), will the airlines (miners) go out of =
business, since planes (blocks) will never be full and the cost to add =
people (transactions) to a plane (block) will approach zero? Probably =
not. Airlines (miners) still have to pay for pilots, security screening =
staff, fuel, etc (engineers, hash rate, electricity, etc) so even if =
their airplanes (blocks) can hold limitless people (transactions), they =
would still have to charge sufficient fees to stay in business.
>=20
> What tests do you need done to move to 8MB? Pitch in and help get =
those tests done; agree that we'll run more tests next year or the year =
after when technology might allow for 16 MB blocks. Do you really want =
to be the guy holding back bigger planes? Do you really want to =
artificially constrain block size below what technology allows?=20
>=20
> In the face of such strong market demand for increased capacity in =
globally aware global consensus, do you really think you can prevent =
supply from meeting demand when the technology exists to deliver it? Do =
you really want to force a fork because you and others won't agree to a =
simple raise to a static 8MB?=20
>=20
> Do what's best for Bitcoin and define what needs to get done to agree =
to a simple block size increase to a static 8MB.
> _______________________________________________
> bitcoin-dev mailing list
> bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org
> https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev

=
.=C2=B7=C2=B4=C2=AF`=C2=B7.=C2=B8=C2=B8.=C2=B7=C2=B4=C2=AF`=C2=B7.=C2=B8=C2=
=B8.=C2=B7=C2=B4=C2=AF`=C2=B7.=C2=B8=C2=B8.=C2=B7=C2=B4=C2=AF`=C2=B7.=C2=B8=
=C2=B8.=C2=B7=C2=B4=C2=AF`=C2=B7.=C2=B8><(((=C2=BA>

Richard Moore ~ Founder
Genetic Mistakes Software inc.
phone: (778) 882-6125
email: ricmoo@geneticmistakes.com <mailto:ricmoo@geneticmistakes.com>
www: http://GeneticMistakes.com <http://geneticmistakes.com/>

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<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html =
charset=3Dutf-8"></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" =
class=3D""><div class=3D"">I=E2=80=99m not planning to take a firm =
stance against or for, but one problem with your analogy is that =
airplanes [currently] are not elastic (until we get TARDIS technology, =
or semi-TARDIS-like technology); they take up space and resources =
proportional to their capacity.</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">It is not the block size that is =
increasing, it is the *maximum* block size=E2=80=A6 So, it=E2=80=99s =
more like saying the *maximum* airplane size is increasing, which I =
think may be somewhat true (although, I agree, probably not =
exponentially). It would be more like an airplane whose capacity was =
doubling every two years, but would shrink when that extra capacity was =
not needed and only consume the maintenance, fuel, et cetera needed for =
its current size.</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">My semi-firm-ish stance is that kicking the can down the road =
with a static increase is less better. We can always soft-fork the limit =
down if the *actual* block size is growing too fast. When (and/or if) we =
need to. I also think 8MB is a rather large jump, for either static or =
dynamic.</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">*shrug*</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">RicMoo</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><br =
class=3D""><div><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div class=3D"">On =
Jun 30, 2015, at 11:34 AM, Michael Naber &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:mickeybob@gmail.com" class=3D"">mickeybob@gmail.com</a>&gt;=
 wrote:</div><br class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=3D""><div =
dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"">As you know I'm trying to lobby for a block size =
increase to a static 8MB.&nbsp;<div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">I'm happy to try to get the testing done that people want =
done for this, but I think the real crux of this issue is that we need =
to get consensus that we intend to continually push the block size =
upward as bounded only by technology.</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D"">Imagine an engineer =
(Gavin) at Boeing (Bitcoin Core) said he was going to build an airplane =
(block) that was going to move 8x as many people (transactions) as =
today=E2=80=99s planes (blocks), all while costing about the same amount =
to operate. Imagine he then went on to tell you that he expects to =
double the plane=E2=80=99s (block's) capacity every two =
years!&nbsp;</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">Without full planes (blocks), will the airlines (miners) go =
out of business, since planes (blocks) will never be full and the cost =
to add people (transactions) to a plane (block) will approach zero? =
Probably not. Airlines (miners) still have to pay for pilots, security =
screening staff, fuel, etc (engineers, hash rate, electricity, etc) so =
even if their airplanes (blocks) can hold limitless people =
(transactions), they would still have to charge sufficient fees to stay =
in business.</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div></div><div =
class=3D"">What tests do you need done to move to 8MB? Pitch in and help =
get those tests done; agree that we'll run more tests next year or the =
year after when technology might allow for 16 MB blocks. Do you really =
want to be the guy holding back bigger planes? Do you really want to =
artificially constrain block size below what technology =
allows?&nbsp;</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">In=
 the face of such strong market demand for increased capacity in =
globally aware global consensus, do you really think you can prevent =
supply from meeting demand when the technology exists to deliver it? Do =
you really want to force a fork because you and others won't agree to a =
simple raise to a static 8MB?&nbsp;</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">Do what's best for Bitcoin and define =
what needs to get done to agree to a simple block size increase to a =
static 8MB.</div></div>
_______________________________________________<br class=3D"">bitcoin-dev =
mailing list<br class=3D""><a =
href=3D"mailto:bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org" =
class=3D"">bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org</a><br =
class=3D"">https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev<=
br class=3D""></div></blockquote></div><br class=3D""><div =
apple-content-edited=3D"true" class=3D"">
<span class=3D"Apple-style-span" style=3D"border-collapse: separate; =
color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-style: normal; =
font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-align: auto; text-indent: 0px; =
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: =
0px; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; -webkit-text-size-adjust: =
auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;  =
">.=C2=B7=C2=B4=C2=AF`=C2=B7.=C2=B8=C2=B8.=C2=B7=C2=B4=C2=AF`=C2=B7.=C2=B8=
=C2=B8.=C2=B7=C2=B4=C2=AF`=C2=B7.=C2=B8=C2=B8.=C2=B7=C2=B4=C2=AF`=C2=B7.=C2=
=B8=C2=B8.=C2=B7=C2=B4=C2=AF`=C2=B7.=C2=B8&gt;&lt;(((=C2=BA&gt;<br =
class=3D""><br class=3D"">Richard Moore ~ Founder<br class=3D"">Genetic =
Mistakes Software inc.<br class=3D"">phone: (778) 882-6125<br =
class=3D"">email:&nbsp;<a href=3D"mailto:ricmoo@geneticmistakes.com" =
class=3D"">ricmoo@geneticmistakes.com</a><br class=3D"">www:&nbsp;<a =
href=3D"http://GeneticMistakes.com/" =
class=3D"">http://GeneticMistakes.com</a></span>
</div>
<br class=3D""></body></html>=

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