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From: Eric Voskuil <eric@voskuil.org>
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Date: Thu, 7 Jul 2022 19:19:43 -0700
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References: <CAHUJnBCHZ7+6B83xDOaSc+EEpVe2x4VzmZUTQ3Z7FhmtMQFbjA@mail.gmail.com>
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To: Bram Cohen <bram@chia.net>,
 Bitcoin Protocol Discussion <bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org>
Subject: Re: [bitcoin-dev] No Order Mnemonic
Precedence: list


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Without a performance requirement there is no reason you can=E2=80=99t store=
 the BIP39 words in any order you want. So it=E2=80=99s certainly possible, j=
ust brute force the recovery. If you have less than a second vs. a few days t=
hen it=E2=80=99s a different question.

e

> On Jul 7, 2022, at 18:48, Bram Cohen via bitcoin-dev <bitcoin-dev@lists.li=
nuxfoundation.org> wrote:
> =EF=BB=BF
> Part of the rules of my challenge is that the 'new' words need to be in th=
e same pool as the 'old' words, so any ordering is okay. Without that requir=
ement it's mathematically very straightforward.
>=20
>> On Thu, Jul 7, 2022 at 10:52 AM Pavol Rusnak <stick@satoshilabs.com> wrot=
e:
>> There is. Just encode the index of permutation used to scramble the other=
wise sorted list. For 12 words you need to store 12! =3D ~32 bits so 3 words=
 should be enough.=20
>>=20
>> Repetitions make this more difficult, though.=20
>>=20
>>> On Thu 7. 7. 2022 at 19:41, Bram Cohen via bitcoin-dev <bitcoin-dev@list=
s.linuxfoundation.org> wrote:
>>>> On Thu, Jul 7, 2022 at 7:43 AM Anton Shevchenko via bitcoin-dev <bitcoi=
n-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org> wrote:
>>>=20
>>>> I made a python implementation for a different mnemonic encoding. The e=
ncoding requires user to remember words but not the order of those words.
>>>> The code is open (MIT license) at https://github.com/sancoder/noomnem
>>>=20
>>> Thanks Anton. There's an interesting mathematical question of whether it=
's possible to make a code like this which always uses the BIP-39 words for t=
he same key as part of its encoding, basically adding a few words as error c=
orrection in case the order is lost or confused. If the BIP-39 contains a du=
plicate you can add an extra word.
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> bitcoin-dev mailing list
>>> bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org
>>> https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev
>> --=20
>> Best Regards / S pozdravom,
>>=20
>> Pavol "stick" Rusnak
>> Co-Founder, SatoshiLabs
> _______________________________________________
> bitcoin-dev mailing list
> bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org
> https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev

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<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"content-type" content=3D"text/html; charset=3D=
utf-8"></head><body dir=3D"auto"><div dir=3D"ltr"></div><div dir=3D"ltr">Wit=
hout a performance requirement there is no reason you can=E2=80=99t store th=
e BIP39 words in any order you want. So it=E2=80=99s certainly possible, jus=
t brute force the recovery. If you have less than a second vs. a few days th=
en it=E2=80=99s a different question.</div><div dir=3D"ltr"><br></div><div d=
ir=3D"ltr">e</div><div dir=3D"ltr"><br><blockquote type=3D"cite">On Jul 7, 2=
022, at 18:48, Bram Cohen via bitcoin-dev &lt;bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundat=
ion.org&gt; wrote:<br></blockquote></div><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div dir=3D=
"ltr">=EF=BB=BF<div dir=3D"ltr">Part of the rules of my challenge is that th=
e 'new' words need to be in the same pool as the 'old' words, so any orderin=
g is okay. Without that requirement it's mathematically very straightforward=
.</div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">=
On Thu, Jul 7, 2022 at 10:52 AM Pavol Rusnak &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:stick@sat=
oshilabs.com">stick@satoshilabs.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br></div><blockquote clas=
s=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rg=
b(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"auto">There is. Just encode the=
 index of permutation used to scramble the otherwise sorted list. For 12 wor=
ds you need to store 12! =3D ~32 bits so 3 words should be enough.&nbsp;</di=
v><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto">Repetitions make this more d=
ifficult, though.&nbsp;</div><div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D=
"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Thu 7. 7. 2022 at 19:41, Bram Cohen via bitcoi=
n-dev &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org" target=3D=
"_blank">bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org</a>&gt; wrote:<br></div><bloc=
kquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1=
px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr=
">On Thu, Jul 7, 2022 at 7:43 AM Anton Shevchenko via bitcoin-dev &lt;<a hre=
f=3D"mailto:bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org" target=3D"_blank">bitcoin=
-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org</a>&gt; wrote:<br></div><div class=3D"gmail_q=
uote"><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;bo=
rder-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">I made a python imple=
mentation for a different mnemonic encoding. The encoding requires user to r=
emember words but not the order of those words.<br>
The code is open (MIT license) at <a href=3D"https://github.com/sancoder/noo=
mnem" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://github.com/sancoder/noomn=
em</a></blockquote><div><br></div><div>Thanks Anton. There's an interesting m=
athematical question of whether it's possible to make a code like this which=
 always uses the BIP-39 words for the same key as part of its encoding, basi=
cally adding a few words as error correction in case the order is lost or co=
nfused. If the BIP-39 contains a duplicate you can add an extra word.</div><=
/div></div>
_______________________________________________<br>
bitcoin-dev mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org" target=3D"_blank">b=
itcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev" r=
el=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailma=
n/listinfo/bitcoin-dev</a><br>
</blockquote></div></div>-- <br><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div><div d=
ir=3D"ltr"><div></div><div>Best Regards / S pozdravom,</div><div><br></div><=
div>Pavol "stick" Rusnak</div><div>Co-Founder, SatoshiLabs</div></div></div>=
</div></div>
</blockquote></div>
<span>_______________________________________________</span><br><span>bitcoi=
n-dev mailing list</span><br><span>bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org</sp=
an><br><span>https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev<=
/span><br></div></blockquote></body></html>=

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