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Date: Thu, 18 Jun 2015 13:42:10 -0400
Message-ID: <CAPWm=eX5Oc4QXkp3H5thPBPzJ-t7JGzF5pVaP+eSd0=h52ku=A@mail.gmail.com>
From: Alex Morcos <morcos@gmail.com>
To: justusranvier@riseup.net
Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=f46d0444028ab5c50e0518ce53db
Cc: Bitcoin Dev <bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net>
Subject: Re: [Bitcoin-development] Concerns Regarding Threats by a Developer
 to Remove Commit Access from Other Developers
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Let me take a pass at explaining how I see this.

1) Code changes to Bitcoin Core that don't change consensus:  Wladimir is
the decider but he works under a process that is well understood by
developers on the project in which he takes under reasonable consideration
other technical opinions and prefers to have clear agreement among them.

2) Changes to the consensus rules: As others have said, this isn't anyone's
decision for anyone else.  It's up to each individual user as to what code
they run and what rules they enforce.  So then why is everyone so up in
arms about what Mike and Gavin are proposing if everyone is free to decide
for themselves?  I believe that each individual user should adhere to the
principle that there should be no changes to the consensus rules unless
there is near complete agreement among the entire community, users,
developers, businesses miners etc.  It is not necessary to define complete
agreement exactly because every individual person decides for themselves.
I believe that this is what gives Bitcoin, or really any money, its value
and what makes it work, that we all agree on exactly what it is.  So I
believe that it is misleading and bad for Bitcoin to tell users and
business that you can just choose without concern for everyone else which
code you'll run and we'll see which one wins out.  No.  You should run the
old consensus rules (on any codebase you want) until you believe that
pretty much everyone has consented to a change in the rules.  It is your
choice, but I think a lot of people that have spent time thinking about the
philosophy of consensus systems believe that when the users of the system
have this principle in mind, it's what will make the system work best.

3) Code changes to Core that do change consensus: I think that Wladimir,
all the other committers besides Gavin, and almost all of the other
developers on Core would defer to #2 above and wait for its outcome to be
clear before considering such a code change.

I'm sure my description of point 2 is not the most eloquent or clear, but
maybe someone else can try to elucidate this principle if they've grasped
what I'm trying to say.


On Thu, Jun 18, 2015 at 1:04 PM, <justusranvier@riseup.net> wrote:

> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Hash: SHA512
>
> On 2015-06-18 16:28, Jeff Garzik wrote:
> > This is an engineering list.  The quote precisely describes how the
> > bitcoin
> > consensus system functions.
> >
> > Users' choice is largely binary:  Follow the rules, or bitcoin software
> > ignores you.
>
>
> Software engineers should understand that they have a binary choice:
> produce the software that your customers want, or the world will ignore
> your software.
>
> There is *no inherent value* to Bitcoin's software rules. The only value
> that is exists is that produced by the individuals who voluntarily
> choose to run the software.
>
> Failing to account for all design requirements is bad engineering.
> Nobody cares about the design features of a bridge to nowhere.
>
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>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> _______________________________________________
> Bitcoin-development mailing list
> Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development
>

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Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"ltr">Let me take a pass at explaining how I see this.<div><br><=
/div><div>1) Code changes to Bitcoin Core that don&#39;t change consensus: =
=C2=A0Wladimir is the decider but he works under a process that is well und=
erstood by developers on the project in which he takes under reasonable con=
sideration other technical opinions and prefers to have clear agreement amo=
ng them.</div><div><br></div><div>2) Changes to the consensus rules: As oth=
ers have said, this isn&#39;t anyone&#39;s decision for anyone else.=C2=A0 =
It&#39;s up to each individual user as to what code they run and what rules=
 they enforce.=C2=A0 So then why is everyone so up in arms about what Mike =
and Gavin are proposing if everyone is free to decide for themselves?=C2=A0=
 I believe that each individual user should adhere to the principle that th=
ere should be no changes to the consensus rules unless there is near comple=
te agreement among the entire community, users, developers, businesses mine=
rs etc.=C2=A0 It is not necessary to define complete agreement exactly beca=
use every individual person decides for themselves.=C2=A0 I believe that th=
is is what gives Bitcoin, or really any money, its value and what makes it =
work, that we all agree on exactly what it is.=C2=A0 So I believe that it i=
s misleading and bad for Bitcoin to tell users and business that you can ju=
st choose without concern for everyone else which code you&#39;ll run and w=
e&#39;ll see which one wins out.=C2=A0 No.=C2=A0 You should run the old con=
sensus rules (on any codebase you want) until you believe that pretty much =
everyone has consented to a change in the rules.=C2=A0 It is your choice, b=
ut I think a lot of people that have spent time thinking about the philosop=
hy of consensus systems believe that when the users of the system have this=
 principle in mind, it&#39;s what will make the system work best.</div><div=
><br></div><div>3) Code changes to Core that do change consensus: I think t=
hat Wladimir, all the other committers besides Gavin, and almost all of the=
 other developers on Core would defer to #2 above and wait for its outcome =
to be clear before considering such a code change.</div><div><br></div><div=
>I&#39;m sure my description of point 2 is not the most eloquent or clear, =
but maybe someone else can try to elucidate this principle if they&#39;ve g=
rasped what I&#39;m trying to say.</div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div>=
<br></div><div><br></div></div><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D=
"gmail_quote">On Thu, Jun 18, 2015 at 1:04 PM,  <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a hr=
ef=3D"mailto:justusranvier@riseup.net" target=3D"_blank">justusranvier@rise=
up.net</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"=
margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><span class=
=3D"">-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----<br>
Hash: SHA512<br>
<br>
</span>On 2015-06-18 16:28, Jeff Garzik wrote:<br>
&gt; This is an engineering list.=C2=A0 The quote precisely describes how t=
he<br>
&gt; bitcoin<br>
&gt; consensus system functions.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; Users&#39; choice is largely binary:=C2=A0 Follow the rules, or bitcoi=
n software<br>
&gt; ignores you.<br>
<br>
<br>
Software engineers should understand that they have a binary choice:<br>
produce the software that your customers want, or the world will ignore<br>
your software.<br>
<br>
There is *no inherent value* to Bitcoin&#39;s software rules. The only valu=
e<br>
that is exists is that produced by the individuals who voluntarily<br>
choose to run the software.<br>
<br>
Failing to account for all design requirements is bad engineering.<br>
Nobody cares about the design features of a bridge to nowhere.<br>
<span class=3D""><br>
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<br>
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</div></div></blockquote></div><br></div>

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