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Date: Mon, 29 Apr 2013 13:42:46 +1000
Message-ID: <CA+i0-i-WxkKU3U9LKpVR57JsCZ4_-hX1XpAgNt_w_2Pb1kVDEg@mail.gmail.com>
From: Robert Backhaus <robbak@robbak.com>
To: Bitcoin Dev <bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net>
Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a11c353a2943d2604db77ad22
Subject: Re: [Bitcoin-development] Service bits for pruned nodes
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While I like the idea of a client using a DHT blockchain or UTXO list, I
don't think that the reference client is the place for it. But it would
make for a very interesting experimental project!


On 29 April 2013 13:36, Gregory Maxwell <gmaxwell@gmail.com> wrote:

> On Sun, Apr 28, 2013 at 7:57 PM, John Dillon
> <john.dillon892@googlemail.com> wrote:
> > Have we considered just leaving that problem to a different protocol
> such as
> > BitTorrent? Offering up a few GB of storage capacity is a nice idea but
> it
> > means we would soon have to add structure to the network to allow nodes
> to find
> > each other to actually get that data. BitTorrent already has that issue
> thought
> > through carefully with it's DHT support.
>
> I think this is not a great idea on a couple levels=97
>
> Least importantly, our own experience with tracker-less torrents on
> the bootstrap files that they don't work very well in practice=97 and
> thats without someone trying to DOS attack it.
>
> More importantly, I think it's very important that the process of
> offering up more storage not take any more steps. The software could
> have user overridable defaults based on free disk space to make
> contributing painless. This isn't possible if it takes extra software,
> requires opening additional ports.. etc.  Also means that someone
> would have to be constantly creating new torrents, there would be
> issues with people only seeding the old ones, etc.
>
> It's also the case that bittorrent is blocked on many networks and is
> confused with illicit copying. We would have the same problems with
> that that we had with IRC being confused with botnets.
>
> We already have to worry about nodes finding each other just for basic
> operation. The only addition this requires is being able to advertise
> what parts of the chain they have.
>
> > What are the logistics of either integrating a DHT capable BitTorrent
> client,
> > or just calling out to some library? We could still use the Bitcoin
> network to
> > bootstrap the BitTorrent DHT.
>
> Using Bitcoin to bootstrap the Bittorrent DHT would probably make it
> more reliable, but then again it might cause commercial services that
> are in the business of poisoning the bittorrent DHT to target the
> Bitcoin network.
>
> Integration also brings up the question of network exposed attack surface=
.
>
> Seems like it would be more work than just adding the ability to add
> ranges to address messages. I think we already want to revise the
> address message format in order to have signed flags and to support
> I2P peers.
>
>
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------=
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<div dir=3D"ltr">While I like the idea of a client using a DHT blockchain o=
r UTXO list, I don&#39;t think that the reference client is the place for i=
t. But it would make for a very interesting experimental project!</div><div=
 class=3D"gmail_extra">
<br><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On 29 April 2013 13:36, Gregory Maxwell =
<span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:gmaxwell@gmail.com" target=3D"_blan=
k">gmaxwell@gmail.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_q=
uote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1e=
x">
<div class=3D"im">On Sun, Apr 28, 2013 at 7:57 PM, John Dillon<br>
&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:john.dillon892@googlemail.com">john.dillon892@googlem=
ail.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br>
&gt; Have we considered just leaving that problem to a different protocol s=
uch as<br>
&gt; BitTorrent? Offering up a few GB of storage capacity is a nice idea bu=
t it<br>
&gt; means we would soon have to add structure to the network to allow node=
s to find<br>
&gt; each other to actually get that data. BitTorrent already has that issu=
e thought<br>
&gt; through carefully with it&#39;s DHT support.<br>
<br>
</div>I think this is not a great idea on a couple levels=97<br>
<br>
Least importantly, our own experience with tracker-less torrents on<br>
the bootstrap files that they don&#39;t work very well in practice=97 and<b=
r>
thats without someone trying to DOS attack it.<br>
<br>
More importantly, I think it&#39;s very important that the process of<br>
offering up more storage not take any more steps. The software could<br>
have user overridable defaults based on free disk space to make<br>
contributing painless. This isn&#39;t possible if it takes extra software,<=
br>
requires opening additional ports.. etc. =A0Also means that someone<br>
would have to be constantly creating new torrents, there would be<br>
issues with people only seeding the old ones, etc.<br>
<br>
It&#39;s also the case that bittorrent is blocked on many networks and is<b=
r>
confused with illicit copying. We would have the same problems with<br>
that that we had with IRC being confused with botnets.<br>
<br>
We already have to worry about nodes finding each other just for basic<br>
operation. The only addition this requires is being able to advertise<br>
what parts of the chain they have.<br>
<div class=3D"im"><br>
&gt; What are the logistics of either integrating a DHT capable BitTorrent =
client,<br>
&gt; or just calling out to some library? We could still use the Bitcoin ne=
twork to<br>
&gt; bootstrap the BitTorrent DHT.<br>
<br>
</div>Using Bitcoin to bootstrap the Bittorrent DHT would probably make it<=
br>
more reliable, but then again it might cause commercial services that<br>
are in the business of poisoning the bittorrent DHT to target the<br>
Bitcoin network.<br>
<br>
Integration also brings up the question of network exposed attack surface.<=
br>
<br>
Seems like it would be more work than just adding the ability to add<br>
ranges to address messages. I think we already want to revise the<br>
address message format in order to have signed flags and to support<br>
I2P peers.<br>
<div class=3D"HOEnZb"><div class=3D"h5"><br>
---------------------------------------------------------------------------=
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Try New Relic Now &amp; We&#39;ll Send You this Cool Shirt<br>
New Relic is the only SaaS-based application performance monitoring service=
<br>
that delivers powerful full stack analytics. Optimize and monitor your<br>
browser, app, &amp; servers with just a few lines of code. Try New Relic<br=
>
and get this awesome Nerd Life shirt! <a href=3D"http://p.sf.net/sfu/newrel=
ic_d2d_apr" target=3D"_blank">http://p.sf.net/sfu/newrelic_d2d_apr</a><br>
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pment@lists.sourceforge.net</a><br>
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velopment</a><br>
</div></div></blockquote></div><br></div>

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